I now have the Water/Methanol Injection kit installed.

I've got it set to kick on at 13.5psi (14psi running boost pressure) and it turns off at 12psi. There IS a noticeable "seat of the pants" boost when the pump turns on. I've got the seatbelt light setup as the "on" light when the boost switch opens the solenoid. After filling up with some $0.93 Wal-Mart windshield washer mix (Winter blend, summer blend has no methanol in it) there was an even better response. I'd even bet money I've broken the 100whp mark, :) but I'll wait for proof after next months dyno run. No EGT readings to report since I have not received the pyrometer yet. No 0-60 time yet since it's still too windy today for any good results.

But, the down side is it chugs the water/methanol mix. It used a little over 1 gallon after about 3 minutes of my test run. Also, 2 seconds into operation the boost will fluctuate between 13.5-14.0 for a second then stabilize at just shy of 14psi. Intercooler effect making the air more dense?

Top-front view of my engine today. Not seen is the boost switch on the firewall.
http://members.cox.net/lnewcomb99/240D/Water%20Inj%20system.jpg

Tap in the lower right of the 2 gallon tank.
http://members.cox.net/lnewcomb99/240D/Water%20Inj%20tank.jpg

A picture shortly before I wired in the switch and tied all the wires down.
http://members.cox.net/lnewcomb99/240D/Water%20Inj%20tank-motor.jpg

The nozzle threaded into the '79 SD manifold's stock port without changing the threads.
http://members.cox.net/lnewcomb99/240D/Water%20Inj%20solenoid.jpg

A view from inside the intake. (Note how clean it is without an EGR or CCV fumes to muck it up.)
http://members.cox.net/lnewcomb99/240D/Water%20Inj%20nozzle%20inside.jpg

You must really get into boost often, just putting about town I rarely get over 9psi. :D

I'm going to have a meth setup (not the crystal kind) on my running BMW to come on at 13psi for the same reasoning, lesser EGTs and resistance to detonate.

Very clean setup. Nice job.

Do you know the water injection rate in gallons per hour? It appears that you are injecting quite a bit more fluid than the experiments that Dave attempted. He didn't get much for results with the WI........possibly because of a much lower quantity.

I need to check out his WI threads over on the other forum and see what the final result was.

The kit I ordered came with a 300cc nozzle. There are no misfires/smoke/powerloss/vibrations/odd noises to suggest that 300cc is too big. It's set to activate at 13.5psi so anything less than WOT will not turn it on. 14PSI is the max boost I have my wastegate set at.

Once I get an intercooler in place, I may have to get a smaller cc nozzle because of the lower intake temps reducing the evaporative capacity.

The kit I ordered came with a 300cc nozzle. There are no misfires/smoke/powerloss/vibrations/odd noises to suggest that 300cc is too big. It's set to activate at 13.5psi so anything less than WOT will not turn it on. 14PSI is the max boost I have my wastegate set at.

Once I get an intercooler in place, I may have to get a smaller cc nozzle because of the lower intake temps reducing the evaporative capacity.

300cc in what unit time??

300cc in what unit time??


I believe it's 300cc/min. I'll have to check with the dealer.

I believe it's 300cc/min. I'll have to check with the dealer.

That's about 10 oz. per minute. The fuel consumption at maximum flow is probably about the same value so the calibration does make some sense.

I'm fairly sure that Dave was not using such a high rate.

Be real interesting to see the exhaust temperatures with this rate.

Be real interesting to see the exhaust temperatures with this rate.

I can't wait. I should get the pyro in the mail monday or tuesday. I just won't be able to get it in until 6/3. :(

I can't wait. I should get the pyro in the mail monday or tuesday. I just won't be able to get it in until 6/3. :(

If the exhaust temps. drop significantly (as expected), will you attempt to modify the IP to provide more fuel?

If the exhaust temps. drop significantly (as expected), will you attempt to modify the IP to provide more fuel?

With the guide from the other forum (whose name cannot be said without the threat of getting banned), the pump will be adjusted. I'll do a dyno run before I touch the inside of the pump just yet. I want to see if the "boost" from this is more than just a seat of the pants feeling.

Don't you love internet drama. :rolleyes:

Anyway, how long do you think a gallon or two would last under normal driving conditions? :confused:

Sorry to jump in here totally clueless:confused: , but what is that and how does it work?

Sorry to jump in here totally clueless:confused: , but what is that and how does it work?

For a good description see Here (http://www.snowperformance.net/faq.asp)

Anyway, how long do you think a gallon or two would last under normal driving conditions?

I have mine setup to only run at WOT and full boost. So only high load situations like passing, racing, steep hills, entering highways, etc will drain the water. Like I said before, I used 1 gallon after 3 minutes of operation. I might be able to make my 2 gallon tank last a week or so depending on how aggressive I drive. The more common 1 gallon tank in alot of W123's will not last as long.

Installing a lower flow nozzle would be a good idea fo those still running under 10psi boost. (I currently have a 300cc/min nozzle.) It will extend the length of time it takes to use up a tnak.

boneheaddoctor (May he be allowed back soon...) suggested an extra 5 gallon tank in the trunk would greatly extend fillups to 1-2 diesel fillups. I have an auxiliary 18 gallon tank in my trunk (144lbs) so another 5 gallons of weight over the rear tires is not an option for me.

Sorry to jump in here totally clueless:confused: , but what is that and how does it work?



It's water or meth injection. Cools the intake charge at high boost. Typically a Hobbs switch is used to have it kick on at a certain boost level. I've seen it from 7psi to 15psi, just depends on the motor.

For these, I'd set it dependant on what your typical freeway cruise RPM is so you can determine the boost level there. Once you have that, set it. I think I cruise about 6psi so I'd have it come on at 10psi probably.



I'm curious as to why it wasn't installed preturbo?

I'm curious as to why it wasn't installed preturbo?

The water hitting the blades at 100,000rpm+, while atomizing it like sombich, would act like sandpaper to the compressor blades. Dulling the leading edges and even creating an out of balance condition as it wears. The shock from the heavy water suddenly hitting the blades could also snap the turbo's shaft. That would be enough to ruin anyones day.

"For these, I'd set it dependant on what your typical freeway cruise RPM"
I cruise around 6-11psi 90% of the time on the highway and rarely go over 10psi on the street.

My SD is at 12psi currently, seems happy there. I don't mind filling it once a week, that's okay by me.

The water hitting the blades at 100,000rpm+, while atomizing it like sombich, would act like sandpaper to the compressor blades. Dulling the leading edges and even creating an out of balance condition as it wears. The shock from the heavy water suddenly hitting the blades could also snap the turbo's shaft. That would be enough to ruin anyones day.



Makes sense to me. :D

Heck yeah, makes sense to me too!

Finally a fix for all those melted turbos and exhaust lines! Because when I temporarilly run in high boost conditions, my car doesn't just cool down on it's own. I'm sick of popping the hood and extinguishing all the flash fires.

With the guide from the other forum (whose name cannot be said without the threat of getting banned), the pump will be adjusted. I'll do a dyno run before I touch the inside of the pump just yet. I want to see if the "boost" from this is more than just a seat of the pants feeling.

You can mention Schuman anytime you wish. It's just another forum. But, constantly having an "in your face" attitude about it might cause me to request that a member tone it down a bit.

Then, after my request, if you were to go and post a diatribe over in OD railing about my request, you might get banned for that. It's a matter of respect for this forum and it's moderators. It's got nothing to do with Schuman specifically.

Brandon has some good results regarding that pump and we should acknowledge and benefit from them.

You can mention Schuman anytime you wish. It's just another forum. But, constantly having an "in your face" attitude about it might cause me to request that a member tone it down a bit.
...
Brandon has some good results regarding that pump and we should acknowledge and benefit from them.

That's good to know. He has posted some very valuable tuning information for the OM617 pumps. Including the *correct* way to adjust the full load and max engine speed.

Yup, the biggie I recall was increasing it's max RPM (to 5500rpm I think?) which also increased fuel flow on the high end for 44-4900rpm area.

Tonight made it all worth it. It was a late model Nissan Altima. I could not tell if it was the 2.5 or 3.5.

The driver seemed like he was ticked off at something. (I didn't do anything to him). He was riding my rear since I changed into the turn lane and was eager to pass me. We got to the stoplight for the I-25 on ramp where it split into two lanes. It was ON. We both chirped our tires and raced for the single mergeing lane.

Long story short, I won. :party: I didn't walk away from hime but I was a nose ahead so that he had to back off in order to merge lanes.

I know it's not as detailed as the 240-metro race, but I still clearly won! :D

I know it's not as detailed as the 240-metro race, but I still clearly won! :D



LOL that was by far one of the most comical things I've ever read online. :D

Video 1.1MB (http://members.cox.net/lnewcomb99/Video/LMN%20Pyro%20boost%20ex-psi%206-3-06.ASF) Needs WMP 10+ for windows or VLC media player on Macs.

I just finished installing my ISSPRO pyrometer and a few test runs. As you can see from the video, I was surprised to see it get that hot. The video cuts off a little short, but it got to 1400*f by 4500rpm. It seems the water injection does NOTHING to lower EGT's. There was no difference between runs with/without it.Sitll, it does give the engine a little more "kick".

Next mod in line for installation, air-water intercooler.

The boost gauge on the right is for exhaust manifold pressure. There must be a leak near the gauge because it pulses/vibrates while under load.

I just finished installing my ISSPRO pyrometer and a few test runs. As you can see from the video, I was surprised to see it get that hot. The video cuts off a little short, but it got to 1400*f by 4500rpm. It seems the water injection does NOTHING to lower EGT's. There was no difference between runs with/without it.Sitll, it does give the engine a little more "kick".




That's too bad. I was hoping you might get some benefit from all that water. Dave found the same results with the WI. No EGT benefits.

Where did you get those gauges (link if possible please) and how much were they?

As for the egt temps not droping, well Dave had the same issue as well :confused: . Maybe it would have been better (for more power) to go lpg/cng fumigation way.

Good luck, Deni

Where did you get those gauges (link if possible please) and how much were they?

VDO vision (http://www.egauges.com/vdo_mult.asp?Type=Turbo_Boost&Series=Vision) Part No: 150-101
ISSPRO 0-30 boost (http://www.egauges.com/vdo_ind.asp?Type=Turbo_Boost&Series=EVA-R&PN=R5613R) Part Number: R5613R
ISSPRO Pyrometer (http://www.egauges.com/vdo_ind.asp?Type=Pyrometer&Series=EVA-R&PN=R3607TR) Part Number: R3607TR
Lead wire (http://www.egauges.com/vdo_send.asp?Sender=ISSPRO_Pyrometer_Lead) Part No: R660-14
Type K Thermocouple (http://www.egauges.com/vdo_send.asp?Sender=ISSPRO_Thermo_1_5) Part No: R650SHT

Hope this helps. :)

As far as boost meters go, I've found that once you've established baseline data (via an accurate test meter), absolute boost pressure figures are largely irrelevant. I've converted a gasser "economy meter" to operate as an in-dash boost meter. It doesn't show incremental boost figures, but I've tested it to show what boost pressures it can represent, relative to needle position. For day-to-day use, I've found that I just need to know some general info regarding the presence of boost, and if it's in the low, mid or high range (not unlike the factory boost meters in Saabs and Volvos).

It's also nice to allow the boost meter needle to sweep backward and show the presence of manifold vacuum, which contrary to popular opinion does occasionally show up on turbodiesel engines.

Another detail that might be related to the high EGT's. At full boost of 14psi, it will fluctuate within a 1psi range. The exhaust pressure does this as well but in a 2-3psi range.

Could the turbo be at the top of it's range or a wastegate quirk?

Novice question: How do I find out what my boost is (I need to install a gauge, right?), and is installing an intercooler something that can be done by a talented college student on a budget?

Novice question: How do I find out what my boost is (I need to install a gauge, right?), and is installing an intercooler something that can be done by a talented college student on a budget?

A boost gauge is a must. There is no good way to tell by "feel".

An intercooler is more for the advanced DIY'ers and mechanics (Lets put it this way, if you have the skills to pull the engine head, you should not have too much trouble with an intercooler.) There is metal fabrication, cutting, welding, braket making, body altering (Depending on design) and many other things. Plan on $300 as the barebones minimum for any kind of intercooler set-up on a W123/W126. It's not something that you can buy parts for and throw on the engine in a weekend.

If I were you, I'd wait until after school is done and things have settled down (Long term home, good job, etc.) before jumping into such a project.

Plan well in advance, search through all the 7 or so MB forums on the net, measure EVERYTHING before you buy/alter parts, and have a second mode of transportation in the case something goes bad.

Good luck. :)

EDIT: Also, learn from my mistakes and install a pyrometer first. I was already WAY over the safe exhaust temp limit. I would have melted something if I had done much else. (It's *amazing* that I have not melted it already.)

I must be doing something right with the mixture. I can feel the power surges as the pump is switched on-off from the water pressure regulation. I still have the 300cc nozzle.

Finding "heet" at a good price is kind hard after Walmart pulled it off the shelves (Along with all the Powerservice and other diesel additives). Everywhere else costs an additional $0.25+. Still no good source for fuel grade methanol by the gallon.

Have you done any modifications to increase fuel delivery? Under which conditions were you getting dangerously high EGT readings? I was quite suprised how quickly the EGT guage climbed over 1200 F.

Have you done any modifications to increase fuel delivery? Under which conditions were you getting dangerously high EGT readings? I was quite suprised how quickly the EGT guage climbed over 1200 F.

I have not touched any of the IP internals yet. Injection timing is at the stock setting, and fuel pressure is stock.

It was 85*f outside, started 3500rpm in 4th gear, was at 1400*f at 4200rpm, 14psi boost, WI on, pedal to the metal. The EGT's take a nosedive at night when it's cooler outside. When it's 60*, I can't get it over 1250 no matter how hard I push it.

It was 85*f outside, started 3500rpm in 4th gear, was at 1400*f at 4200rpm, 14psi boost, WI on, pedal to the metal. The EGT's take a nosedive at night when it's cooler outside. When it's 60*, I can't get it over 1250 no matter how hard I push it.

You're not concerned with 1400°F? IIRC, the danger zone is anything above 1200°F.

You're not concerned with 1400°F? IIRC, the danger zone is anything above 1200°F.

Yes I am quite concerned with 1400*. I only got it to 1400 once and that was to make that video of my first numbers. The reason I don't sound too worried about it is that I know it's been that high (Or higher) many times before without knowing it. It's obviously still running well so I have not killed it from those times. The only time my tuning has had a permanent negative effect is when my boost gauge failed in the mountains when I was tweaking boost settings. (This was well over 1 year ago). I fixed the cracked boost gauge line and found I was making 20+psi boost (As high as my gauge would go). From that time to present, it will smoke and misfire for a few minutes when it's cold (Below 50*f outside on a cold start). Other than that, it's survived my "abuse" VERY well. A lesser engine would have failed a LONG time ago. I can't say enough good things about OM617a endurance.

Yes I am quite concerned with 1400*. I only got it to 1400 once and that was to make that video of my first numbers. The reason I don't sound too worried about it is that I know it's been that high (Or higher) many times before without knowing it.

If you are able to repeatedly hit 1400°F. without damage, it might be a possibility that 1200°F. is too conservative. But, there is an element of time at temperature that is important. 1400°F. for 10 seconds might do no harm, however, continue up a long hot upgrade at maximum continuous power and the engine might not tolerate it for 120 seconds........

if the EGT is already high, wouldnt cng/lng fumigation == kaboom? :silly:

keep in mind our man is also operating at some significant altitude. i dont know what that does to EGT, but i think any air cooling systems would be naturally handicapped. probably not 200f handicapped, but handicapped none-the-less.

if the EGT is already high, wouldnt cng/lng fumigation == kaboom? :silly:

Ahh, yes. But I still have tricks left. *cough* intercooler *cough* ;)

I'm sure living at 5800' altitude is doing something. Good or bad, I don't know. Now that I have the pyro installed, maybe it's time for a trip up Pikes Peak again for some 14,000' action? :D

Here are the dyno results.

Runs-
1: No WI- 99.5HP/149.3TQ
2: Pure water- 99.9/149.3
3: 60% water, 40% methanol- 102.7/148.2

The red arrow is the point where the WI was triggered by boost pressure.

HERE (http://members.cox.net/lnewcomb99/Video/240D3T-Dyno3.ASF) is a video of the 3rd run. (Right click, Save as) WMP9 or VLC media player needed to view.

Here are the dyno results.

Runs-
1: No WI- 99.5HP/149.3TQ
2: Pure water- 99.9/149.3
3: 60% water, 40% methanol- 102.7/148.2

The red arrow is the point where the WI was triggered by boost pressure.

HERE (http://members.cox.net/lnewcomb99/Video/240D3T-Dyno3.ASF) is a video of the 3rd run. (Right click, Save as) WMP9 or VLC media player needed to view.
Something sounded very unkosher when you came off the pedal. Is this water/meth mix used by other ppl? I can only imagine some MB engineer rolling over in his grave....

Something sounded very unkosher when you came off the pedal. Is this water/meth mix used by other ppl? I can only imagine some MB engineer rolling over in his grave....

That is the tires.

Something sounded very unkosher when you came off the pedal.

Thats the tires running on the rollers.

The water/methanol I use is a 50/50 mix (By weight, not volume).

If I'm reading the curves correctly, the straight water didn't get you anything, but the 40% methanol mixture increase the HP and torque at higher rpm only. That's interesting, I suspect it has to do with the flame propagation speed of methanol being faster than diesel. The methanol combustion may be more able to "match" the piston speed at higher rpm better than diesel only. Is it practical to design a system that only injects methanol at higher rpm?

If I'm reading the curves correctly, the straight water didn't get you anything, but the 40% methanol mixture increase the HP and torque at higher rpm only. That's interesting, I suspect it has to do with the flame propagation speed of methanol being faster than diesel. The methanol combustion may be more able to "match" the piston speed at higher rpm better than diesel only. Is it practical to design a system that only injects methanol at higher rpm?

It starts at 3500rpm because I have the boost pressure switch set at 13psi. Any lower and I'd be using up the stuff too rapidly in daily driving (I wanted to test it as I drive it in the real world.) If I could have had a 4th run, setting it at 5psi would have been nice to try.

I do not know if the straight water did anything with EGT's. The tech was driving the car. But as you can see, there was no "steam engine" effect like some WI sellers claim. 0.4HP is well within random variables range between runs.

I now have the Water/Methanol Injection kit installed.

I've got it set to kick on at 13.5psi (14psi running boost pressure) and it turns off at 12psi. There IS a noticeable "seat of the pants" boost when the pump turns on. I've got the seatbelt light setup as the "on" light when the boost switch opens the solenoid. After filling up with some $0.93 Wal-Mart windshield washer mix (Winter blend, summer blend has no methanol in it) there was an even better response. I'd even bet money I've broken the 100whp mark, :) but I'll wait for proof after next months dyno run. No EGT readings to report since I have not received the pyrometer yet. No 0-60 time yet since it's still too windy today for any good results.

But, the down side is it chugs the water/methanol mix. It used a little over 1 gallon after about 3 minutes of my test run. Also, 2 seconds into operation the boost will fluctuate between 13.5-14.0 for a second then stabilize at just shy of 14psi. Intercooler effect making the air more dense?

Top-front view of my engine today. Not seen is the boost switch on the firewall.
http://members.cox.net/lnewcomb99/240D/Water%20Inj%20system.jpg

Tap in the lower right of the 2 gallon tank.
http://members.cox.net/lnewcomb99/240D/Water%20Inj%20tank.jpg

A picture shortly before I wired in the switch and tied all the wires down.
http://members.cox.net/lnewcomb99/240D/Water%20Inj%20tank-motor.jpg

The nozzle threaded into the '79 SD manifold's stock port without changing the threads.
http://members.cox.net/lnewcomb99/240D/Water%20Inj%20solenoid.jpg

A view from inside the intake. (Note how clean it is without an EGR or CCV fumes to muck it up.)
http://members.cox.net/lnewcomb99/240D/Water%20Inj%20nozzle%20inside.jpg

where are you finding the inline valves that the hobbes valves turn on and off? i have the hobbs valves, but i cannot find the inline ones.

thanks.

where are you finding the inline valves that the hobbes valves turn on and off? i have the hobbs valves, but i cannot find the inline ones.

thanks.

You are talking about the big back valve before the nozzle?

I got it with the kit from eBay. I don't know where you could get one separate.

Still no good source for fuel grade methanol by the gallon.

I can buy Methanol by the gallon from my loca NAPA store....
What percentage Me - H2O are you using?
you think this WI system can be coupled with an LPG system?

I can buy Methanol by the gallon from my loca NAPA store....
What percentage Me - H2O are you using?
you think this WI system can be coupled with an LPG system?

I tried my local NAPA and all they had was air line antifreeze.

I got my 100.2hp with 50/50 mix, but daily I run 70w/30m to reduce cost.

I don't see why LPG can't be used. I'd like to do the same, but it's not very high on my list of to-do's.

If you are using a lot of methanol over time, just get in contact with a local biodiesel homebrewer and you can get methanol in larger amounts. I will be getting a 55 gallon barrel soon for bio. I think that I can get it for around $140 for the first barrel and less for the ones afterwards. Good luck, I might want to do this to my extra car that seems not to be doing anything right now.

DK

Here is a video from this afternoons Cummins truck show: Mister link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKuvFGwVBGs)

What did the kit cost you. Will a meth/H2O injection search find me "The Kit"

Thanks,
Stephen

What did the kit cost you. Will a meth/H2O injection search find me "The Kit"

Thanks,
Stephen
eBay link. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/WATER-INJECTION-Alcohol-Intercooler-Turbo-Supercharger_W0QQitemZ230011134077QQihZ013QQcategoryZ42604QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) This is the kit I bought. I opted for the 300cc nozzle to start with.

It cost me about $195 after shipping.
The hardest part of installing the whole thing is the electrical wiring.

I found a good source of Methanol at my local drag strip for $2.96/gal.

After reading the whole thread and other WI threads herea nd other places, I gotta ask one question- why? For over $200 and time spent to install you get only three RWHP and no EGT drops. I'm looking for a reason to say I will or will not install on one of my 617's. Thanks
William

Well, I am pretty much the first to try it on an OM617. I didn't find the person who did it to an OM603 until a few weeks after I'd already installed mine.

Most people here would not gain anything significant from it's use and just see it as throwing away $200. 3hp is 3hp. I can *feel* when the WI activates and it got me past the 100rwhp mark without touching the IP internal settings. It's worth it to me because I'm looking to squeeze every HP out of the stock longblock.

Everyone here has been getting 75-85whp on the dyno in stock trim. It just makes me feel all warm and gooey inside to think that I might have something special here.

People come to this forum all the time and post stuff like "make my car do burnouts", "How do I get 250hp out of my engine?", and "I want a sportscar diesel."
I'm not just posting theoretical stuff here. I don't just cange something and say "It gave me 15hp." I go out and PROOVE it on the dyno. Ridge and his beautiful Intercooled 300DT (http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=46703&highlight=intercooled+300dt) are a perfect example. His setup is something I could only dream of making myself. He put ALOT of work into it and calimed it gave him an instant 20hp. Yet he NEVER gave any numbers to backup this claim. No 0-60 times, no pyrometer readings, no dyno sheet, nothing. His last post was in 10-26-2004 so we'll never know exactly how it affected his car.

I think that you should scrap the stock air filter and add on a nice high flow air filter to give you a little more hp.

DK

Well, I am pretty much the first to try it on an OM617. I didn't find the person who did it to an OM603 until a few weeks after I'd already installed mine.

Someone has to go first. I think it's great that Lance has the time and inclination to experiment with these things and is willing to accept the risks involved with these experiments.

I think that you should scrap the stock air filter and add on a nice high flow air filter to give you a little more hp.

DK
IIRC, someone here tested it and the stock filter is not at all restrictive.

Someone has to go first. I think it's great that Lance has the time and inclination to experiment with these things and is willing to accept the risks involved with these experiments.

I agree.

There are a lot of people who make modifications, or advise for or against a procedure and then post with a conclusion, when in reality they have no data.

Lance has made the modification and spent hard earned money to obtain the hard data necessary to prove the results.

Good job.

I think that you should scrap the stock air filter and add on a nice high flow air filter to give you a little more hp.

DK

I use my car every day and those "nice high flow filters" don't filter worth a rat's behind. That's why they flow so well. Go look closely at one, it's got holes in the gauze big enough for salt grain sized junk to get past it.

In other words, K&N style and foam filters are junk, I'll never touch them.

Besides, it all goes back the that "More air without more fuel= no increase in power."

I use my car every day and those "nice high flow filters" don't filter worth a rat's behind. That's why they flow so well. Go look closely at one, it's got holes in the gauze big enough for salt grain sized junk to get past it.

In other words, K&N style and foam filters are junk, I'll never touch them.




Agreed.

The only thing high performance foam and gauze filters are good for is a pre filter for when you know its going to be very dusty and dirty. If you want the high flow for a race just take the filter out for that short period. You will find it doesn't make much difference anyway.

I do think that the stock 617.952 filter mount arrangement is junk and would really like to come up with a good filter housing that wasn't cantilivered 24" off the side of a shaking diesel engine. Musta designed that one around Oktoberfest time...

IMHO, the way a 603's filter is done in a 126 (and probably 124s and others) is perfect.

I do think that the stock 617.952 filter mount arrangement is junk and would really like to come up with a good filter housing that wasn't cantilivered 24" off the side of a shaking diesel engine. Musta designed that one around Oktoberfest time...




..........you just need to get yourself a smooooth running 617.............:D

I'm still on filter mounting bracket #1............:P

..........you just need to get yourself a smooooth running 617.............:D

LOL!

I'm getting spoiled. With the R4 compressor in my wagon rattling like a coffee can full of marbles, I've been driving SWMBO's 300D for the last couple of days (she's gone on biz). Automatic, R12 a/c, CD player. The only thing it needs is to have the driver's seat rebuilt; it got the classic Mercedes sag.

LOL!

I'm getting spoiled. With the R4 compressor in my wagon rattling like a coffee can full of marbles, I've been driving SWMBO's 300D for the last couple of days (she's gone on biz). Automatic, R12 a/c, CD player. The only thing it needs is to have the driver's seat rebuilt; it got the classic Mercedes sag.

It's quite amazing, actually.

That bracket was designed by the Germans for a properly running 617. Any injectors that are misfiring, any significant deviation in compression, any valves that are not fully closing all serve to contribute to engine shake.

When it gets bad enough, the bracket is the first victim.

I believe that bracket will last indefinitely if the engine does not develop a case of "the shakes".

About the only severe vibration that the bracket sees is on startup and shutdown. There is a momentary point where the amplitude is severe.......but the number of cycles is minimal.

Besides which, if you've got a welder, it's a no-matter. Mine's been broken since I got the car a year ago. I finally a few weeks ago pulled it off. Nice clean break. I cleaned off the gunk, welded her back together and bolted her back up. No rattles, and 200 miles of testing done.

I accidentally let the washer tank run empty. Now the pump runs for a 1/2 second every few seconds and it seems like the pressure is bleeding off internally because the solenoid still seals.

If I can get it working properly again, it will be moved to the trunk along with a 5 gallon tank and low-level sensor. This will make room in the engine compartment for the by-pass oil filter.

why were all 4 wheels spining on your dyno runs?
did i miss something?

It's an AWD Superflow dyno, there was no way to disable half of it.

Video 1.1MB (http://members.cox.net/lnewcomb99/Video/LMN%20Pyro%20boost%20ex-psi%206-3-06.ASF) Needs WMP 10+ for windows or VLC media player on Macs.

I just finished installing my ISSPRO pyrometer and a few test runs. As you can see from the video, I was surprised to see it get that hot. The video cuts off a little short, but it got to 1400*f by 4500rpm. It seems the water injection does NOTHING to lower EGT's. There was no difference between runs with/without it.Sitll, it does give the engine a little more "kick".

Next mod in line for installation, air-water intercooler.

The boost gauge on the right is for exhaust manifold pressure. There must be a leak near the gauge because it pulses/vibrates while under load.


That pulsating may just be the pulses from 5 cylinders firing?...how's the air/water intercooler coming along?

The puses are from the pump building up to pressure, stopping and restarting as the pressure drops again. (In other words, the pressure at the nozzle is going up and down, slightly varying the flow rate.) This should be solved as I move the pump and tank to the trunk. The longer amount of tube should act as a crude accumulator.

The intercooler is far away. I'm saving for a new engine so it's low priority right now.

Because the boost will (probably) build pretty quick with the VNT turbo, I've been thinking of getting a 100cc/min nozzle and using it as the main WI nozzle. I would then have my current 300cc/min nozzle activate via a throttle switch after 75% or so pedal application. That would give me my desired 400cc/min flow and I may bump up the secondary nozzle to 350 or 400cc if the engine can take more.

Johnny come lately (that's me) has just put a crude Water/methanol mister in his WVO powered 240D and is wondering if he's done it right. There is no noticeable boost. This is how it is setup - (if I should start a new thread, then let me know and I'll delete this post)

9.6 Gph @ 40Psi fogger sprays straight into the air intake in the air filter housing. I am using the built in windscreen spray bottle and pump for the moment - to see if it's worth doing properly or not. I have heard these will do 10psi at the flow rate of this nozzle. That works out to about 4.5 Gph at 10Psi which is around 300cc/min.

I have a mix of about 25% meth to 75% water.

I use the windscreen wiper pushbutton on the steering wheel to switch the pump on. The wipers wipe without water while it is on, but for now who cares.

So my 2 questions are - did I put the nozzle in a bad place? What I'm worried about is water getting into the valve cover via that breather tube that goes from the valve cover to the intake manifold. As far as I could tell there is always positive pressure at the valve cover - is that true, or could I be sucking water into my engine oil under certain conditions?

2nd question - is my flow too low? There is no noticeable effect when I do the injection. I 'm not really worried about that, I didn't do it for the power boost (heck, I drive a 240D, I've given up on power), I did it for the cleaning of the cylinders etc becuase I use 95% WVO single tank and don't want the cylinders coking up. It could be my imagination, but the beast does seem to idle a bit smoother since I started spraying (only 1/2 gallon so far). I thought I would see some black smoke at the exhaust when I apply the injection at full throttle, but no, there is no smoke. As mentioned, the flow is calculated roughly at 300cc/min, but that could be wrong since it is not an empirical test - there are a few estimations.

Advice appreciated. Hijacker flaming and name calling accepted.

Thanks.

Johnny come lately (that's me) has just put a crude Water/methanol mister in his WVO powered 240D and is wondering if he's done it right. There is no noticeable boost. This is how it is setup - (if I should start a new thread, then let me know and I'll delete this post)

9.6 Gph @ 40Psi fogger sprays straight into the air intake in the air filter housing. I am using the built in windscreen spray bottle and pump for the moment - to see if it's worth doing properly or not. I have heard these will do 10psi at the flow rate of this nozzle. That works out to about 4.5 Gph at 10Psi which is around 300cc/min.

I have a mix of about 25% meth to 75% water.

I use the windscreen wiper pushbutton on the steering wheel to switch the pump on. The wipers wipe without water while it is on, but for now who cares.

So my 2 questions are - did I put the nozzle in a bad place? What I'm worried about is water getting into the valve cover via that breather tube that goes from the valve cover to the intake manifold. As far as I could tell there is always positive pressure at the valve cover - is that true, or could I be sucking water into my engine oil under certain conditions?

2nd question - is my flow too low? There is no noticeable effect when I do the injection. I 'm not really worried about that, I didn't do it for the power boost (heck, I drive a 240D, I've given up on power), I did it for the cleaning of the cylinders etc becuase I use 95% WVO single tank and don't want the cylinders coking up. It could be my imagination, but the beast does seem to idle a bit smoother since I started spraying (only 1/2 gallon so far). I thought I would see some black smoke at the exhaust when I apply the injection at full throttle, but no, there is no smoke. As mentioned, the flow is calculated roughly at 300cc/min, but that could be wrong since it is not an empirical test - there are a few estimations.

Advice appreciated. Hijacker flaming and name calling accepted.

Thanks.

Not good to put it pre-turbo. The mist acts like sandpaper to the compressor blades..

My 240D doesn't have a turbo (unlike ForcedInduction - can you even call that a 240D?), so it is not pre-turbo.

Theres no need for methanol injection on a N/A engine. The IP can provide more than enough fuel for all the air available. There is no need for intake charge cooling without a turbo.

I would be nervous about that set-up. If the mist isnt spraying into hot air it might not evaporate.. then there is just water flowing into your intake...

Yes, water into the intake I've read about as having a cleaning effect on the innards. It's atomized to about 50microns.

Is that not true that mist at the intake cleans the insides?

I understand the theory... I have a water/meth system installed.... My fear is that injecting water in the air filter housing will result in condensation instead of evaporation, due to not enough heat at the injection point...

First, 9.6gph is WAY too much for a 240D, you need about 2-3gph at most to prevent liquid in the cylinders. The nozzle will not work well at all at 10psi, it will just be a pee stream. It should be 60+psi for good atomization (mine is 120psi).

What pump are you using and what is your nozzle?

Well, I did a 0-60 speed test with my meted up 240D (don't laugh!).

Without injection - 29.6 sec

With injection - 24.5 sec

I think I'll hit the drag strip this weekend! :)

ForcedI - 9.6gph is the rating at 40Psi. But since I am only getting around 10psi, it is around 4.5 GPH which is around the 300cc/min mark.

Using the wiper washer pump for delivery

To the eye, it seems to be spraying a pretty fine mist. I haven't tried it at 100psi, but it looks fairly fine. Remember, I am only really after the cleaning effects to counteract any WVO coking problems.

I had missed this thread - woops. Anyway, I'm the guy who went through a lot of trouble to install WI on my 603. At first there was no change, with a 3gph nozzle... so I put in a 5gph nozzle, still not much change... finally went to 10gph, and at least got something measureable. I dropped several tenths at the dragstrip with WI turned on, so it's making more horsepower (with methanol - not water.) And, it reduced IAT's as well, usually holds them to 150°F max, although under extended WOT they did near 200°F (without WI, add 75-100°F to those numbers.) EGT's were totally unaffected, which really annoyed me, as all the folks who hawk these kits rant and rave about the wonderful EGT reductions. Didn't happen on my car, or Brandon's 617 either. Go figure.

Full details are in my thread here:
http://buymbparts.com/forum/showthread.php?t=475

Bottom line, for power increase, there's more to be gained with tweaking the full-load screw than with WI. Next on my list is attempting an intercooler of some sort. My WI setup has a boost switch (set to turn on at something like 10-12psi) but I also have a switch on the dash (factory rocker, in the wood panel, looks stock) to shut it off entirely. I leave it off 99% of the time now. The switch was necessary to allow freeway cruising without emptying the reservoir.


FYI - copied from my other thread:

I figured out the metric conversions for my nozzles:
200cc/min (or ml/min) @ 100psi = 3.17 GPH
300cc/min (or ml/min) @ 100psi = 4.75 GPH
600cc/min (or ml/min) @ 100psi = 9.51 GPH

Or, the other way around...
3 GPH @ 100psi = 189cc/min (or ml/min)
5 GPH @ 100psi = 315cc/min (or ml/min)
10 GPH @ 100psi = 630cc/min (or ml/min)


:o

Im running the Water/Meth injection with a 7-GPM Nozzle. I have been pretty happy with the system. There is a noticable Boost when the system kicks on, I assume that is Methanol. I installed the pyrometer on the same day and I havent hooked the toggle switch so I dont have a with/without EGT comparrison.... Flipping it off on the Highway is a good call though, even with my 2.5 gallon tank in the trunk, im filling it 2 per tank of gas.

I think that for many people this would be an easier install than turning up the full load switch, maybe I see it that way because I havent turned mine up yet... There are also some emmissions benifits and possibly some engine cleaning effects...

Oh... If I run more than about 35% Meth I get a crazy Rattle any Ideah what that is? it mellows as soon as more water is added.

EGT's were totally unaffected, which really annoyed me, as all the folks who hawk these kits rant and rave about the wonderful EGT reductions. Didn't happen on my car, or Brandon's 617 either. Go figure.

Same here. I get a power boost but no change in EGT's with the WI turned on.

Burning question...

Why is everyone expecting lower EGT?
the whole point of water injection is for the cooling effect, which makes air more dense, allowing more oxygen to be packed into the air charge.

so then wouldn't it stand to reason, that if the IP isn't set up for the extra oxygen at **WOT** it would lean out and increase your EGT's unless you had something like propane?? I stand ready to be corrected....or flamed...

GSXR... I studied your post on that other site many times while contemplating my own install. thanks for that!!!

Just one thought. I had planned on using my EGR block plate as the nozzle mounting spot, based on your post, but once I removed it it became obvious that there was not a clear shot into the intake. I know we have different engines...and I am not familliar with yours, But are you sure the mounting is optimal for cooling.

I feel like I remember seeing forced inductions set up on a water injection forum and some of the guys there suggested that the placement was not optimal for cooling.... cant find the link

Found that link... http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1018

Why is everyone expecting lower EGT?

Because lowering EGTs by ~200* is one of the major selling points pushed by all the WI manufacturers, especially those sold for the diesel pickups.

Just read the thread.. Good information with data to back up eveything. So the extra horsepower only comes from the methanol which is the only added fuel? Thought the point of water injection was to lower EGT so you can crank up the boost and fuel.

Why is there not any room on the (617) engine to raise the boost higher than stock like most other diesel engines?

Why is there not any room on the (617) engine to raise the boost higher than stock like most other diesel engines?

There is plenty of room for boost. Brandon ran his engine at 26psi of boost for many months before his accident.

The injection pump won't compensate for more than 12psi of boost so running anything higher than that is pointless. The injection pump needs to have it's maximum fuel rate increased (or add an external fuel source such as methanol or propane) before extra boost will do anything productive.

The injection pump won't compensate for more than 12psi of boost so running anything higher than that is pointless. The injection pump needs to have it's maximum fuel rate increased (or add an external fuel source such as methanol or propane) before extra boost will do anything productive.
Exactly. There's no point in adding boost if there's no fuel to go along with it. All you end up with is super-heated intake air and higher EGT's (opposite effect of adding an intercooler).

As to the question of why water injection doesn't lower EGT's on the 617 or 603, I don't know. It doesn't make sense to me either, and nobody has been able to explain it. All I can figure is that for some reason, it doesn't work well on high-compression, indirect-injection diesels. The MB's are something like 22:1 ratio, and I think the typical late-model truck diesels are in the teens with more boost. I saw a minor reduction in intake air temp with the water injection, but the only power gain was from dumping in a ton of methanol, with zero reduction in EGT's. Looks like we're stuck with adding an intercooler to reduce EGT's.

:freak:

Guess the water injection on the high compression engines like you are saying is just a small drop in the bucket when you get up to the ratios in the 617. Seems like you need to make a big change like with a intercooler to get a small change in the exhuast when you have a higher compression ratio.

I found this on the website below. Also has a calculator at the bottom of page.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

That link had a line about not using Methanol in WI systems. Has anyone else had problems with Meth? I could not run 50% Meth Due to a nasty rattle/noise that would develop. I adjusted my boost control from 7psi to 10psi and run about 30% Meth and it seams better, and I'm not filling my reservoir 4x's per tank of Fuel. I just happened to buy some Denatured alcohol last week but I haven't run it yet. What are others running? and at what %???

You might need to up your boost to 13-14psi if you want to run 50%+ methanol. 10psi is barely enough for stock fuel settings.

I use distilled water and pure methanol. I mix it 50/50 by weight (water is heavier than methanol per volume).

IMPORTANT EDIT: This is a notice that I have removed my water/methanol injection system. The slight power increase it gives along with no reduction of EGT's means that it is not worth the price of maintaining the system (water mix). What I may do in the next few months is move the pump and tank to the trunk and make it into an intercooler mister to increase my A-A intercooler's efficiency.

You might need to up your boost to 13-14psi if you want to run 50%+ methanol. 10psi is barely enough for stock fuel settings.
Sorry I was referring(not very clearly) to the Boost controller for the WI system. My Max boost is set to about 14.75psi since i installed the WI. What I was trying to say was that my WI used to come on at 7psi and now it comes on at 10psi. That seems to help a little with the noise and I still get the fuel boost from the higher meth/water ratio, but I still cant run 50/50.

Guess the water injection on the high compression engines like you are saying is just a small drop in the bucket when you get up to the ratios in the 617. Seems like you need to make a big change like with a intercooler to get a small change in the exhuast when you have a higher compression ratio.

I found this on the website below. Also has a calculator at the bottom of page.

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html
They're talking about gas engines, not diesel. Not everything applies the same between the two.

:wacky: