Hello!
It's engine resurrection 4 (to quote CTH!)...just in time for Easter?? Afraid not!

I've torn into that front carburetor. It's going super quick, now that I've done the rear one..

Here's what I've discovered (so far!)....On the front carb, stage 2, which is controlled by the vacuum box...was completely stuck shut! I removed the BOX, then removed the choke housing. As you know, what is LEFT is the little device that the vacuum box ROD snaps onto and pulls by vacuum to OPEN stage 2. I tried to MOVE this device (with nothing ON it..) and it would NOT budge. SO...I (not knowing!) thought maybe it is supossed to remain shut all the time..but thinking it over, I decided that it WOULDN'T HAVE a vacuum box on there for no reason..SO at that point I used a little force and "broke" this little device FREE (I didn't actually BREAK anything, thankfully!). Now the stage 2 throttle flap will move.

The reason for for it sticking is/was good old fashioned GUNK build-up.

Now....this is a good discovery, right? This should help my car run...don't ya think?

I haven't even checked out the air holes inside the throttles to see if they're clogged too (as the rear carb was)....they probably ARE since this thing is soooo cruddy!!! I am literally SCRAPING this gunk off!!

AND..on another note...CTH was right (again!)...the front carburetor doesn't have an idle adjustment screw inside the choke housing..??

~Christy

Hi guys..

I just found out that the mixture screw in the front carb is BROKEN OFF!!
I think someone must have STUCK IT IN TOO FAR!!!

The rear carb had some air hole blockages...whereas this carb has more technical difficulties...and no air blockages..but for me, finding things WRONG with these carburetors is a good thing...now I don't feel like all my efforts are for not.

~Christy

I believe it's "for naught" but you certainly seem to be having a good time!

Chuck

HI guys...

I have a problem. I now have the front carburetor cleaned. That secondary throttle plate, that WAS stuck shut, will now MOVE, but it is VERY stiff. I can now see, with all the thick, black, crud removed, that there is some rust and corrosion on the part OPPOSITE the lever side....the side with the little e-clip...
It IS an external part of the carburetor, so can I spray it with a silicone product to free it's movement??

Any thoughts???
Anyone...please respond!!!!.....please??

~Christy

I would use WD-40 or carburetor choke cleaner rather than silicone spray. Remember that the secondaries get opened by vaccuum, not mechanical, so they have to move freely.

Chuck

Now..whether or not I did it RIGHT, is another story...

BUT....I rebuilt the Zenith 35/40 inat carburetors!!!! YAY!! :D

The WD-40 worked like a dream....that throttle flap moves with the greatest of ease.....

So....the next step is to attach them to the car. I am having doubts (serious doubts), that the car will magically start....but who knows!????

Cross your fingers!!!!

I'll let ya know how it goes!!!!!

~Christy

I've got my fingascrossed! I'm still waiting in terror!

Yugo girl. :)

-CTH

HI guys.....

I miss having a question...
The carbs aren't on the car...yet!

I am waiting to get screwed and get my HANDS on some NUTS....

Once I get those nuts in my hands and get a screw or two....I'll be ready to DO the deed....

~Christy

Christy,
Sounds Kinky! But seriously - I usually re-use the original screws and nuts unless they're all lost or mangled. So, how soon before you're
'Tearing up Those Twisty Roads' in your Benz? The suspense is preying on us!
Happy Motoring, Mark DiSilvestro

Kinky's just her problem. Whoever screwed up the carbs before she did destroyed one of the screws.

-CTH

I've been following this thread from the start and I must say, it's the best example of online instruction I've ever seen. I'm assuming Christy is a novice, but this rebuild is something even someone with moderate experience would find a little daunting. Hats off to Charles and Christy for a job well done, hope it works! :)

Kuan

She done most of it herself. I've just been helping her interpret what she reads in the manual. There have been at least 2 other assistants besides me in the mix.

-CTH

Hi guys!!!

I got SCREWED today....;)

...and....I got my hands on some NUTS!!! (Remember Mark, that I had busted a nut a while back, and that was when I was told, to go get that CHEAP, OPEN BOX...)

So...all that taken care of, I am ready to DO the DEED!!!

************************************************************
Quick question (from Dad..) He was told that I should be able to get the car RUNNING with a PROPANE torch!!?? Unlit, I presume!! He thought MAYBE I should try having someone hold the propane over the intake HOLES to see if the car will run. BUT...the car DID stumble on ether, which is more volatle than propane, right? Probably wouldn't matter, huh.

I promised Dad I'd ask....

~Christy

I know, I know....put the freakin' carbs ON already!!!
I like to PROLONG things...:)

You can tell dad that the ether test is on par with his propane one. I'm not sure which one is "safer".

BTW, there are kits available to run your car on propane or LPG. Not an option in this case, since they cost more than your car did.

-CTH

The question on everyone's mind....
But, Did it???? NO :( *sigh*

Here's what happened....
First try...nothing much. I didn't put any fuel under the float...I know fuel was getting TO the carbs before, NO PROBLEM, so I figured it'd fill up on it's own.

Second try...Dad held THE TORCH..actually the propane gas over the primaries...it chugged really good....

Third try....I was beginning to feel DESPERATE, so AS I cranked, I fluttered my foot, faster than a jackrabbit (doing HIS thing), and the car STARTED, in a way...

Fourth try (and every try after...lost count!) I PUMPED the gas pedal, fast and furiously, and the car actually RAN, (I think) that is, until I released the key from the "start" mode, to the "on" mode.

It's hard to describe. The car did EVERYTHING, EXCEPT go "Varoom", well, it DID go "Varoom, Varoom Varoom" as long as I held that key on "start" as soon as I let go, it wouldn't STAY running. It did better (by far) today then ever. It was so damn CLOSE!!! For example, it was "running" in a sense, that I feel if I kept that key cranking in the "start" position, and threw it in "drive", it'd practically go. I mean, it'd barely HANG ON for 1-2 seconds AFTER the key was released to the "on" position. The engine just WON'T CATCH and RUN...


OH...and the most important thing, (MAYBE?), was that the thing was BACKFIRING, a bit (like 3-4 times in 8-10 seconds) on EVERY TRY from 3 and on...

AGAIN...the timing chain is WAY LOOSE!! I was PLAYING WITH IT a while when the valve cover was off....(jumped a tooth? Timing way off??)

SO next we suspected FIRING ORDER...Of course we didn't crank the engine, like NORMAL people...BUT we tried to switch around the plug wires, as shown in a Chilton's book I have (that everybody hates!) and THAT only made matters WORSE! So we put them back, as they were...

We tried to advance the distributor..no help..open/close the points...no-go....AND NOW the car is possible WORSE OFF than it was!!!!! AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

It's still doing the same thing as it was...coming close. It is NOW closer than ever, like I said, IT RAN, to me..sort of..

I'm again questioning that coil...maybe the spark isn't HOT enough??? But moving the distributor makes a hotter spark, right? (I read that..I thought)

Remember it BACKFIRED...that's a good sign, sort of, right??

I'm kind of bumming. I don't think the problem is carburetor. Maybe some fine tuning would help it run SMOOTHER, but the f'n thing should AT LEAST START!!!....

I'm SO discouraged and overwhelmed...
Does anyone have anything to say??? :( *sniff* *sniff*

~Christy

Oh...BTW...the backfire is THROUGH the carbs..(not the tailpipe...)

~Christy

Christy,
It sure sounds like a timing problem to me. Did you ever check the position of the rotor when the no.1 cylinder is at the top of the compression stroke and both valves closed? It sounds like if the chain jumped a tooth on the cam sprocket, you should double check this and adjust the wires/timing accordingly. I just made this mistake on another car a couple of days ago and racked my brain trying to figure it out. Then my freind checked it real quick and made the adjustment and it fired right up! I coulda killed him!

Hey -

Don't get discouraged!

Check to see what voltage you are getting out of your ballast resistor with the ignition ON. When in starting position, you bypass it. So when you release the key, you may be going to too low voltage. I think you need at least 6V to fire the coil.

Nice work - probably means you got the carbs right! What a woman.

Chuck

Christy,

Good job.

Check the voltage from ground to each end of the balast resistor when the key is ON.

Do the same test with an assistant holding the key to start.
Clearly, you can't do that test for long w/o recharging the battery.

Let the battery charge for a good couple of hours (on the lowest charger setting) before you do the test.

Also, you're going to have to check the plugs again.

-CTH

PS. Sounds like your car can use a massage. Hell, Chuck gave his carbs a hand job. Look where it got him. :)

CTH..

What am I looking for on the plugs??? WETNESS??? Or if there is a spark???

How hard is this timing thing....I'm nervous!!!

AND...Chuck! You really think I got the carbs right??

~Christy

Christy,

It's not what we THINK, it's what we KNOW; namely that you got the carbs better than they were before. You never did join the veterans mailing list at http://www.mercedes-veterans.com.

I know this, because there, you would have gotten Jamie's commentary on his work on a 250S. Jamie is a college kid who went through what you are doing now. The difference, is that he did it about a year and a half ago. NOW look at him. Yeesh.

As for checking the plugs, like before, you are looking for crud, oil and gas and want them clean. However, now that you have ignition, keep your eyes open for a grey-brown ashen color. That's a sign of GOOD ignition. Kinda like noah getting the dove to come back with a branch in its mouth.

-CTH

Hi Guys..

Y'know, the longer it takes to repair this car, the longer I stay SOOO DIRTY!!!

OK...as for the spark plugs...the more I think about it, the more I think the thing was sparking..in fact I know it was sparking...maybe just not at the right time...

So what does that mean??? Is that a POINTS problem? A DISTRIBUTOR problem? Or a TIMING CHAIN (and surrounding areas?) problem?? Could it be all of these things at once??

I will check the Ballastor Resistor (wasn't HE in Star Wars?) once I figure out HOW to use the voltimeter! Electrocution IS a possiblity...so If ya don't hear back from me...

~Christy

Christy,

The volt meter has two rules on what NOT to do.

1. If your meter is set to read resistance (ohms) or "continuity" (sometimes shown with a diodesymbol "->|-").
Don't touch the leads to a battery or other circuit that has power running through it. The meter will be blown.

2. If your meter is the old fashioned, analog type with a real "meter" on the front, when you test voltage, it gets pretty pissed when you connect the leads "backwards" and the needle moves to the left instead of the right. Just swith the leads.

Now, for what we're talking about, you need the meter set to read DC voltage. If your meter is one for cars, it probably only has a DC setting, so it will work on a setting marked "V" or some such thing.

One lead is black, the other red. They color code them so that you can figure out which one is which when they get all tangled, but also, so that when you read voltage, +12 volts is different from -12volts.

So, you're ready to run a test. get one of PJs little batteries. On the side there is a + and a -. Put the black lead to the - and the red lead to the + and the meter should read about 1.5 volts. That means that the + side is 1.5 volts "higher" than the - side (thus the signs). Now, you can do the same to your car battery. Fully charged, it should read 12v, give or take a little.

OK, ready for work.

1 Turn the key to #1 (running, not starting).
2 Put the black lead on a piece of bare metal in the engine compartment. Preferrably, not the engine or radiator. Look for a screw or bolt in the body. Use the battey - lead if you have to.
3 Put the red lead on one side of the balast resistor, doesn't matter which end (I'll explain why, later).

Now, you can read the voltage from the chassis (ground) to that leg of the resistor. You should see "some" voltage.

If you get nothing, either your ground connection is faulty or the ignition circuit has a problem. So, move the red lead to the battery and leave the grounded lead alone. If that suddenly works, then we have found the start of your ingition problem. If you still see nothing on the meter, ith the red lead still on the battery, move the black lead around until it reads 12 volts. Now go back and repeat step 3.

4 Now, test the other leg of the balast resistor.

Again, you should read voltage AND it should be a different value from the other one.

One side should read 12 volts, the other about 9. That voltage drop is what the resistor did. Electricity, like water "flows". Voltage is a measure of the pressure of that flow. 12 volts is twice the pressure of 6 volts. The resistor has changed the pressure from 12 down to 9. The coil will drop it some more, as will the condensor, if your ignition circuit requires one (yes, I'm glossing over LOTS of detail here. You're not an ee major, so it's just detail and won't help solve car problems).

The 12v end of the balast is directly wired to your ignition switch. The other end is connected to the coil, right? There's another lead on that end of the resistor. It goes back to the starter, so that when the starter solinoid has juice (12v), this side of the resistor also has 12volts.

To prove that is true, you will need an assistant to hold the key in position #2, while you handle the meter.

Any of you brave lads want to venture to Pittsburgh to turn her key?

-CTH

Christy,
If the ignition switch or circuit turns out to be faulty and you're brave, you could hook a jumper wire between the battery positive terminal and the coil positive terminal.
Good Luck, Mark DiSilvestro

Hi guys!!

I have a question...NOW, the car came as close as it DID to starting (what I have since figured out, that it was merely "running" off of the starter motor...) WITH ME pumpin' and jumpin' on that accelerator PEDAL....that accelerator pedal is linked to my carburetors. If I think about what that LINKAGE, I know that it opens and shuts the throttle flap of the primary in each carb. WHY in the world, would my car comes closer to starting, by PUMPING the pedal, as opposed to NOT PUMPING the pedal???
Because that is exactly what happened...

ALSO..about my timing issues. My timing chain is WAY loose. I've been informed that the tensioner is HYDRAULIC and if since the car has been sitting, it could have become loose and POSSIBLY could tighted back up IF the engine would ever actually run. Is this true??

SO guys...I am NOW doubting my carb job...

Would a HAND JOB help any of this?? Yeah...it's probably just what I need...or...uh...the car NEEDS...uh...yeah...:)

~Christy

Christy,

The pedal linkage is also hooked up to the acceleration plunger. It pushes 1cc of gas into the primary every time you punch the gas. That means there is hope. (more later, I'm between sessions of a training class!).

-CTH

Christy,
You may have experienced better "starting" when pumping the pedal because when you do that, the accelerator pumps squirt extra gas down the carbs.
Your timing chain tensioner sits in a pocket or 'well' in the cylinder head normally filled with oil. You should be able to see this when the valve cover is off. When the engine is running, it will pump itself up and hold pressure as long as this well is full of oil.
If the tensioner is OK you can fill the well with oil and work / pump the tensioner up ad down by hand to bleed out any air. It should become almost impossible to compress if it works and has no air in it.
I suppose,it's also possble for the chain to be so worn / stretched that the tensioner is at its limit but mine is still OK after 190,000+ miles.
Good Luck,
Mark

Guys..

Ok. Now, just to make sure my problem isn't some silly lack of fuel problem...I HAVEN'T tried adjusting the mixture screws since I put them back in. On a (very) old post, someone (I forget who)said to SCREW it all the way IN and about 1 1/2 truns OUT a good starting place.
That's what I did.

Should I try turning them a bit? Dumping gas down the primaries?? FINDING A CLIFF!!!!

~Christy

Christy,
Aren't there alot of cliffs around Pittsburgh?....but seriously, opening up the mixture screws another turn wouldn't hurt but you might try dumping a bit of gas down the carb primaries first - if you're sure that you have good spark and timing is close enough to run on. If everything else is OK but the carbs were still completely stopped up, it should still start and run for a few seconds with a few ounces of gas down each primary.
Good Luck,
Mark

Hi guys!!

OK. I went out today to try to start my car. I turned the key and started PUMPING the accelerator pedal. AND.....the car got to running like it was before (off the starter) and when I let go of the key (from the "start" mode to "on") I KEPT pumping on the pedal...and the car continued to run for about 4-5 seconds (long seconds, it seemed).

What the hell is that??

I THINK, the timing is off, but not by THAT much. Of course I tried to start it AGAIN, and this time it BACKFIRED (through the carbs)and didn't keep running (no "hang-on")....PLUS my foot was getting tired from fluttering the pedal.(this pumping requires fast and furious motion to work)

SO....who wants to speculate what is going on now????
OF COURSE, I didn't DO anything NEW to the car SINCE the last post...(sorry!)

But the car really ran today....sort of..

~Christy

Christy,
You're getting there! You might pump the pedal faster. Maybe, try tiny adjustments to the timing. If you turn the distributor slightly one way or the other it may start better. (But note where the distributor is now so you can reset it if you have to!)
Good luck,
Mark

Mark....

My Dad and I have moved the distributor around sooooo much, that I'm certain it is all wacked out!!
When we did, it only seemed to make matters worse. Are you talking about the small screw that is loosened, to make the distributor move ( only!) an 1/8 of an inch (?) to the right or left??? Just want to make sure I'M on the right page here..

And....BELIEVE ME!!! I am pumping that pedal fast and furiously to make this car start! My foot doesn't often move that fast, so it's HARD to DO IT for a long time....

Does it sound like timing...or do I still have some fuel/CARBURETOR issues?????????? Or can one even guess??? :rolleyes:

~Christy

Christy,
You might already have the distributor timing pretty close.
Check to see if the chokes on both carbs are closed. (It will make for very hard cold starting if they're not!)
If the chokes are closed, check for any disconnected vacuum lines or hoses. (especially big ones like the line to the power brake booster)
If there's a possibility that the brake booster is defective, you might disconnect its hose at the manifold and plug that port while you try starting.
Good Luck,
Mark

It runs? For seconds w/o having the key at #2?
That's something it NEVER did before, so you've made a milestone!

Now, try that again. THIS time, after fluttering it back and forth a few times, leave the pedal half pressed down. if it keeps running, back off on the pedal and listen to it run slower and slower. You want to find out how slow it will go before it keels over and dies.

It would help if you could connect your tach (assuming you have one) so that you can read the RPMs at this point. It's a lot more consistent that trying to remember just how loud it WAS when it stops.

-CTH

Christy:

I hate to beat a dead horse (let alone a live one) but what you are going through - BEEN THERE, DONE THAT!!

Please check your ignition timing. Chalk (paint) a mark on TDC on the timing pully, rotate the crankshaft clockwise then stop when the timing mark points to TDC. The distributor rotor should point DIRECTLY at the Number 1 terminal on the cap. If is doesn't, make it so. If you are off 180 (or close), then you are trying to put the cap on 180 out or (can't remember if you had all the distributor wires out or not) need to re-plug the wires. Book timing on your car is about 4degrees AFTER TDC and if you get a lot further from that figure (more after), starting will be difficult. Once you get the distributor set to Number 1 at TDC them chalk (or paint) a couple of temporary marks on the side of the distributor and the engine block where the the distributor is mounted. This makes it easier to get back to "square one" when you are working on getting the timing set. Rotating your distributor counter-clockwise advances the timing (good if you are going from TDC), rotating clockwise retards timing (bad if you are going from TDC).

Check to see that your idle cutoff solenoids are working and that the #4 fuse is OK. This controls both the electric chokes and the idle cutoff solenoids.

Did you pour a couple of teaspoons of raw fuel down each carb throat to try to start this beast? Can't remember.

Again, as mentioned in the previous post, check vacuum lines. If it were me I would cap (plug) the vacuum ports on the intake manifold for both the break booster and the accessories as none of that is needed at this time. It removes a possible source of problem. What you need to get down to is basically your bare-bones engine without a bunch of "other stuff" connected until you sort out the situation.

As I said, BEEN THERE - DONE THAT.

Dan

HI guys!

Here's an update. Not too much has changed. :(

I've decided that my carburetors may have needed a second look. I looked. What I have NOW discovered is that the little brass nozzle inside of the primary is NOT squirting any fuel upon acceleration. I took it apart and found that there was NO blockage. SO...the next thing to check was the pump piston, which I hadn't removed before (I ASSumed that it was a-ok). Well, I took it out and it appeared to have never been removed. It has a squishy and worn leather sleeve on the bottom. I want to try to rebuild this pump, since I have a new rubber part, that replaces the leather. HOWEVER, I don't know HOW to remove the leather part. *sigh*

SO....I then decided that maybe I should TRY to see if the pump with old leather would work, but NOW I can't get it back in the hole. AND the little spring around the very bottom is all loose and falls off. And the leather skin on the end of the pump keeps flipping up.

SO...NOW I had planned to have a pal come over to set the timing this weekend and NOW I have completely jacked up the carburetors again!!

~Christy

Christy:

Had the very same thing happen with one of my carbs. The other one had the newer replaceable plastic sleeve. Dealer told me that the leather item was "non-replaceable" and got me a replacement pump assembly with removable plastic. Don't remember what it cost at the time as I had picked up some other parts and stuff. Oh, yes, I tried to "soften" up the leather with leather restorer. Didn't work at all. It just made it easier to curl up in the pump channel.

Just my experience.

Dan

Dan...

OK. I just took the pump apart! It ends up that there is NO WAY to remove the leather piece. SO....I've been trying to figure out a way to TRY to reuse this one. It's probably a BAD idea..but I'm desperate!

So...the question...is the leather part SUPPOSED to be DOWN over the spring or UP, in a pulled back state, when it is put inside the chamber it came from?? I can NOT get it in the hole without the leather part flipping up.

~Christy

Hey!

I got that pump back in! I just kinda turned it as I inserted it and it worked! HOWEVER...I STILL CAN NOT make fuel squirt out of that little nozzle!!! I can't figure it out! Do you think that the pump can't build up enough "compression" to squirt??

~Christy

Christy.

It is supposed (and HAS)to be down over the spring. The spring forces the side of the leather pump out against the chamber walls and this is what seals the pump to the chamber. When the pump moves down in the pump chamber (well) fuel is forced out through the bottom of the chamber into the accelerator pump channel and comes out the brass nozzles. If the leather can't seal against the chamber then it cannot force fuel out the nozzle. You might try to soften the leather (as I did) and work the pump into the chamber VERY carefully using a VERY SMALL screwdriver or something and work the leather into the chamber. You might put some gas on the chamber wall as it may be easier to get the leather pump installed. Mine was torn by the time I tried to save it so nothing I did worked. Maybe someone has a spare - I don't or I would send you one. I gave all of my spares away with I replaced the Zenith Carbs with Webbers.

Dan

Don't worry about the pumps for now, they won't have an impact on idling.

Concentrate on the timing. Be sure to get dad's camera so we can see some pictures!

-CTH

Be sure that the nozzle is not clogged - I had to ream mine out with a little piece of wire. Also, you can get replacement pumps from the dealers.

Chuck

HI guys......

OK. The timing checked out to be pretty a-ok. It is about 2 degrees off the mark, but I am told that should be fine..for now.

THE CAR RUNS!!!!!!!!!!!! BUTT.....The car will ONLY run, IF the gas pedal is COMPLETELY depressed. If I let up on the pedal, the car will choke out and die. The car sounds like it is idling rather normally WITH that pedal to the metal. However, I can't rev the engine or accelerate, for that matter.

SO.....I think it is some sort of linkage adjustment. Which one, though????


Can you guys BELIEVE it RUNS???????? :D

~Christy

Congratulations!

There is an adjustment on the linkage below the front carb. I think it is two pieces of metal that held together with a screw. If you loosen the screw, you may be able to adjust how much throttle opening you get from depressing the pedal.

Chuck

Chuck, are you referring to the linkage from the accelerator pedal? That's only going to affect the delay between touching the gas and start of opening the throttle plate, and not how wide the throttle will open (unless it's severly screwed up). A cursory glance seems to show that spacing to be the requisite half inch or so of travel. [I was giving Christy & her dad phone support last night :].

I felt, at that point that one of two things is wrong, either the accelerator pedal is way out of wack, or the linkages on each carb going to the throttle plates are way out of wack.

I asked Christy to get a measure of the engine speed when it seems to be "idling normally". Since she's working inside the garage and doesn't know what 800 rpms "sounds like", a read off a tach is in order to have a hard number.

The other test to make (and I forgot to mention this on the phone, sorry), is to look down the throat of the carb with a flashlight as the engine is idling and make sure that there isn't gas pouring out of the whatchamacallits sitting in the middle of the carb. You know, the tidbits you cleaned & reinstalled last week.

-CTH

Guys...

Ok. Y'know how one must adjust a clutch cable to the right length...too short won't work...too long won't work. My problem seems to me, to be the gas pedal adjustment...if there is such a thing.
What I am trying to say, is that I NEED the gas pedal to DO MORE, while being depressed LESS.
Does that even make sense? My gas pedal will only DO ANYTHING when it is FLOORED.

When I talked to you, Charlie, I'm not sure if I was measuring the right thing. Did you mean the little part that stretches a centimeter or so, BEFORE the entire linkage moves??

What I think the car needs is something a little more MAJOR than the idle speed adjusting screw. I could be wrong...I HOPE I'm wrong, but something is wact and it may be more than one thing.
I know the PO messed with the fuel pump...it can be adjusted, right?
AND those brass nozzles AREN'T shooting sh*t into the venturi..the rear one drips one or two drops a minute...NO steady stream happening here! I'm CONVINCED the pump pistons are busted! (accelerator pumps?....are they supposed to be continuously shooting gas down the throats??)

It is SOOOOOOO VERY CLOSE!!!! (I think!)

~Christy

You should only see fuel coming out of the preatomizers (I looked it up) when you're off idle and running. So at an 800 rpm idle, you won't see anything, but 1,000 rpm you will.

So, so far, your observations lead us to believe that you have to really move the pedal a lot to get a small opening at the trottle. Once you can confirm that you're not going past 1,000 rpm when floored, we'll no for sure.

I'm thinking that you need an assistant again. With the assistant flooring it, watch the throttle linkage. while the assistant holds the pedal to the floor, move the linkage by hand. Is there room to go? and if so, how far?

Do this first with the car not running, just so that you get a feel for it. There shouldn't be a lot of travel available for you to play with beyond the pedal's full range of motion.

Try the same test with the car running. Be prepared for one really loud backfire. Also, when you bring the linkage back to rest (with the assistant still holding the pedal), don't be surprised if it stalls.

Be sure to do that last test with the tach connected. If there is freedom to move the linkage beyond the pedal's travel, accelerate slowly to 3,000 RPM in 200 RPM increments, get the engine to stay at each speed for about 5 seconds w/o having to wiggle the linkage. I would be curious to know at what speeds it seems stable and at what speeds it tends the meter wiggles or the engine stumbles. Of course, I'm making a big guess that the current problem is the pedal linkage.

-CTH

HI!

As I pressed the pedal on one of the times we had it running, my Dad pulled the linkage back a bit (not THAT much) FARTHER, and it DID cause the car to stall and backfire! My Dad was just being experimental and all this sudden action was somewhat startling to him! He apaologized profusely but, he KNOWS I don't care!

So, what do ya think? Pedal linkage? Did it stall because my pump pistons don't work?? BTW Chuck, I DID take the nozzles out and found there to be NO blockage. I BLEW on the underside HOLES, with the screws removed, of course, UNDER the pump and beside, and air travels through the nozzle freely...so I've got bad PUMPS, huh.

Nothing like a girl working on a car with a pair of BAD PUMPS...

~Christy

Christy -

I think that your first step should be to get the car to idle and then increase in RPM when you gradually increase the throttle. Once you get there, you can sync the carbs and eliminate them as a source of trouble.

Remember, you only need the shot from the tube when you increase throttle quickly. Like Charlie said, the accelerator pumps will not affect idle and constant speed.

Suggest the following:

1. Measure the distance between the accelerator pedal and the floor, at the top of the pedal. It should be three inches more or less. If it is not, then you need to figure out why. My bet is on the "bellcrank" under the front carb which is formed by two pieces of metal joined by a screw. I think that one can loosen the screw and move the two pieces to obtain the proper clearance between the pedal and the floor.

2. Have someone depress the pedal slowly while you watch the carb linkage. First, the quarter inch of slack should be taken up in the "slider" on the linkage. THEN, BECAUSE OF THE CONNECTING ROD (AT THE BOTTOM), BOTH CARBS SHOULD START TO OPEN. When the pedal is fully depressed, the primary throttle plates should be fully open as in verical in the throttle bores. You will have to look down the bores with a light.

3. Remove the connecting rod between the carbs. Adjust the throttles with the adjusters at the rear of the carbs until the top levers are about one-quarter inch below the flat surface from which the idle stops protrude. It is important that the levers be in the same relative position. Now put the connecting rod back on. Adjust the length so that the carb levers are not disturbed when you put it back on.

4. Give the throttle three good pumps, hold the throttle slightly open and start the engine. Once it fires, bring it slowly up to a fast idle and let it warm up.

5. Back off on the throttle and let the engine idle. If it will not idle, adjust one of the idle stops (on the underside of the cover) to increase or decrease idle speed as needed.

6. When you get it to idle, you can sync the carbs like the manual says. Then deal with the bad pumps.

If the engine does not start and run, then I suspect that you have fuel supply or fuel pump problems. Also remember that it has at least one dead cylinder, so it is not going to purr.

Chuck

Christy,

Let me alter Chucks instructions a little...

Start with last half of Step 2... With the pedal floored (assistant or a cinderblock), look down the throat of BOTH carbs and make sure that the throttle plate is up. [Good call on that Chuck, I was trying to think of how to check them, and was thinking about how closed they were, not how open.]

THEN, disconnect the linkage from the pedal to the front carb. BEFORE you do so, note the relative position of things. What we are trying to discover, is if the range of motion for the carb linkage is being restricted by any other component.

Can the throttles move better when the accelerator linkage is disconnected? If so, try to explain it to us, either that they can open more, or they can close more.

Can the throttles move better when the linkage between the two carbs are disconnected? If so, which carb has a greater range?

Most importantly, how fast is that idle? I presume you haven't had a chance to get the RPM rate w/o your dad being around.

-CTH

PS. Keep up the good work your work last night was good!

Guys..

I CAN'T increase the RPM...the engine will NOT rev...It doesn't make sense!!

Dad's coming over tomorrow...I will have some hard (rpm) numbers for you guys..

Meanwhile...last night I adjusted all of the linkage to the carbs....y'know the rod with the slider on it...I made it so that it would open the throttle more, sooner....it really didn't seem to help..

Note: Remember...I DON'T know what I'm doing!!!!!

WHY is it IMPOSSIBLE to rev the engine??? Lack of fuel?? Could it be some wacky electronic rpm switch??? It CAN'T be ignition, right???

~Christy

I wouldn't eliminate the timing from the equation. I don't know why, but before I took the carbs off I could set the idle when the car was hot, have it idling sweet, close the hood put my feet up open a KLB and pat myself on the back. However, when I wake up to go to the gym in the morning, it sounded alot like the condition you describe, mat the pedal to hold idle. So I turn the distributor CW a hair or 3 and I get my idle back, and I'm down the road fuming I haven't beaten the rush.

I'm not saying it is your problem but I wouldn't dismiss it outright either.

PS
Love those Pens!

Guys..

How free is all of this linkage supposed to be?? What I mean is, that when I got this car, all this linkage was soooooooo gunky that it didn't move very well. NOW it is sooooo clean, that it's sort of STIFF :).

The amount of movement the linkage will do BEYOND what the gas pedal will make it do, isn't enough to matter, at least I wouldn't think. It will only open the throttle a touch more...

On another thread I mentioned the TIT...on the fuel return valve, being constantly pressed in. What the hell would that mean?? FUEL STARVATION????????????????????????????
Aka: MY PROBLEM????????????????????????

~Christy

The fuel return valve is that bronze button screwed into the front carb. On its bottom is a small silver button. The pedal linkages are designed so that the valve is closed as soon as you touch the gas. Otherwise, at idle, the valve is open and fuel circulates back to the tank.

The guy on the other thread is getting starvation at speed, not idle. The fuel supply at idle is sufficient to keep the bowl filled AND allow for the circulation of gas back to the tank. At speed, there isn't enough gas to do both, so they close the valve.

-CTH

Hi guys.....

I don't know what the hell happened....but my car won't even start now. It started the first try, ran for several seconds and choked out and died. The DIFFERENCE this time is that it will not start again. It cranks fine, seems to be firing, but no go...

We did discover that the points are bad. However, My distributor has an ERECT SHAFT inside of it and the points have a HOLE through one end that SLIDES ONTO THE SHAFT. The local auto store had no set of points (in stock OR for order) that even resembled my points. My distributor number is 114xxxxxxx so I think it is original to the car...all the points they had for sale had a rivited part (instead of a hole) on the "hinge" side of the points..
So...we filed my points to try to make them temporarily work, but we cannot get a decent dwell number unless we make the gap non-existent.

As for RPM...no can do...the highest rpm I could get while cranking was 400rpm...but the car wouldn't start..

Speaking of starting...that is partly the problem...the car cannot get a high enough rpm...it's just bazaar!! Even when it DID start, it idled so quietly and I couldn't rev the engine or raise the rpms...

I removed the fuel lines to the carbs...took off the center coil wire and cranked....gas spurted out of both lines evenly...cranking it for say, 2 seconds, resulted in 3-4 tablespoons of gas in two little containers..seemed ok to me.

The problem seems to be a lack of fuel...

About the gas pedal...I can start to depress it maybe 3/4 of an inch and it does NOTHING. It'll go down about 1 1/2 inches to the floor and it moves the linkage on the carbs back...however, the linkage still has about 3/4 of an inch to go back AFTER the peedal is fully depressed...
ALSO, tried to fool with that return valve....it didn't help...I moved the blades both below the acentuator so it sort of works better, but it is the only thing I changed and now the car won't start...the car did better with that TIT pushed in...hhhmmmmmmm

I am really screwed here. I know that replacing those points isn't going to make the car start. It might help, but I'm certain that they are not the problem.

I'm so bummed..the car won't start at all now!!!

~Christy

btw...I realized that the distributor number is completely different than what I had said above...but does it matter???

When I try to crank it...it won't even come close to starting and when I stick my finger in the primaries, they are all wet and have gas all over them...the point being, that I think that the engine IS getting gas....BUT it doesn't smell like gas after cranking and the plugs aren't wet...I AM getting spark and dwell is around 35...battery IS charged...compression should be good enough.....I'm soooo discouraged!!!!! I tried to make the mixture leaner..it didn't matter. I'm LOST!!!!


[Edited by bachlauter on 05-12-2001 at 08:09 PM]

Christy,

"there, there dear". OK, so much for patronizing....

The distributor number should be 0 231 116 052. I just checked some vintage bosche points, I have about 50 that are marked for your car (67-69 model 250) and sure enough, they all have the stud. So, see if your distributor number matches the one I wrote above.

Do you know if your points are any worse than they were when you first got the car? I presume they sucked then too. That's GOOD news, since a new set of points may make a big difference. Your plugging that vacuum leak to the brakes will also help.

-CTH

CTH....

That IS my distributor number!!!

The points have been like this ever since I got the car. They are very worn....do you think it'd make that much of a difference???
We couldn't tell how worn they were by looking, but we got real brave :) and revoved them from the distributor...and....WOW, who'd have thought! I NEED new points! Currently (no pun!) the contacts aren't flat and do not make a perfect contact. So...

~Christy

While you are in ignition land, you might consider plug wires. I got my biggest single "gain" on the 280S when I replaced two bad wires. That got it to the point where I could work with the Zeniths to get it to sort of idle.

Hang in there!

And happy Mothers' Day!

Chuck

Christy,

I'm gonna send you a care package on Monday. In it will be a suitable pair of points (which I just happen to have laying about in NOS condition) and the book I've been sending you excerpts from.

Do you need another tool like the last one? I know you've put it to such good use.

I'd send you my unison, but Mitch has it.

-CTH

PS. New plug wires WOULD be a good idea, but you don't want to know what they cost. Since nothing but the real Bosch ones will do.