Thanks guys for helping me get the engine running. Now that the engine is performing like a champ, I am getting used to driving the car. Before I bought it, it hadn't been driven in years. Now that it is running, I want to proceed with making repairs that will make it drive and handle smoothly-- the steering and suspension are kind of sloppy and everything is rattling right now. The tires have also been sitting and tend to "chirp" a lot. Are there bushings that are easy to change and other things that I should check? I changed the bushings in the transmission shifter, and those made a world of difference. The old ones had pretty much disintegrated so I bet the other bushings throughout the car also need replacement. I've never driven anything like this, so I don't know how it is supposed to drive. One more odd question...the engine is not running hot (about 75C), but my rear gets really toasty. Is there a heat source under my seat or something?
Hemant

1957 190sl
1986 AMG

Oh, so you've just found out that the heat works all the time!! A couple of things to check. 1) is your floor/firewall leakproof (no holes) 2) any holes in your heater units (right/left)? If so, the engine fan forces the engine heat into the units. 3) anything under the carpet? Many times the floor pans are replaced and the wood subfloor doesn't get replaced. You can buy new plywood, or make your own. I also put reflective padding under the carpet. 4) Are your heater units "leaking" - as in are the valves not sealing completely. If so, which is likely, they will need some attention. The 190SL Group tech manual describes this in detail. You can also put an on/off valve into the heater circuit under the carbs, as I did. I still get some leakage into the heater cores even when it's turned off on the dash. Now when I need heat, I throw the valve under the carbs (bought at Home Depot). In the warm months, I turn it off.

Good luck!

A couple of thoughts. I cured my heat problem by pulling the core out of the heater valves, rotating them 180 degrees and replacing them. Works good and is easy.

I don't recall you commenting on your brakes. Driving is fun, stoping is manditory. Do the brakes pull to one side? You should remove each drum and inspect for fluid leakage and uniform wear of the shoes. If everything gooks good, flush the brake system with new brake fluid (that is pump about a can of brake fluid through the system; most of it through the right rear, the rest through the other wheel cylinders). I converted my system to silicon (DOT 5) fluid, which is purple, and you can see the color change when clean fluid is being pumped through. If everything does not look good, the rule of thumb is to replace all four brake hoses. This is not a fun job but as I said, stopping is mandatory.

After driving and stopping, most of the drivability items are more money than work. Check the shocks, if required, buy Bilsteins ($75 each). Tires, think seriously about getting 14-inch rims so that you can buy current technology radial tires of the required diameter. The standard tire was a 6.40x13, which has the outside diameter of a modern 205/70/R14.

As you begin doing things to this car, think before drilling any hole; keep almost everything you remove (especially the radio). Brackets, battery hold down frame and many parts are expensive and hard to find. Save everything.

I echo Jim's comment about keeping things. It's the little items that get lost/thrown away that are expensive on these cars. Tools. Clocks. Fuse Covers. Sunshades. Air Cleaner (some replace this when putting Webers on). Washer bags. You get the drift. You should see ebay go nuts when these items come up for bid. Since they aren't made anymore, the prices just keep escalating. I would suspect that the "average" decent looking/driving 190SL is "missing" between 5 and 10K worth of "stuff". What would you guess, Jim?

My brakes are fine...I had them professionally done and everything was replaced. I don't think you guys want me showing up at a 190sl group meeting with brakes I did myself! I am interested in 14" wheels though. Are there ones available that take our hubcaps?
On Saturday morning I found a business card on my windshield for an automotive repair place called Auto-FAR. I figured it was from someone who was sick of me revving the engine at night or something. But then my neighbor told me that a 190SL's in perfect condition had stopped by that morning. So I called the repair place and it turns out that it is owned by an old Swedish mechanic named Rudy who was a MB factory trained tech in West Germany in 1955! He works on the other 190, 280, and 300sl in town. Now I have an additional brain to pick, even though I still want to do most the work myself. Unfortuantely his shop is on the other side of town, about 25 traffic-filled miles away!

I think a $5-10K estimate is high but if you look close, many cars (including mine) could use a lot of little things. Things like chrome wiper blades verses dull silver, plug wire ends, lockable gas cap, head light benzel, origional fuel pump, origional Solex carbs. All small and they don't seem like much but the value adds up quickly. Even a radio blank plate is very hard to find and expensive. Just save it all.

We all do our own brakes.

Welcome to the 190SL world where most 190SL owners are always on the lookout for other 190SLs. You would be welcome at any 190SL gathering BECAUSE you drive your car. In my book, driving is more importance than appearance.

Sounds like me. I put cards from my mechanic under windshield wipers (with a note) all the time. He treats me VERY well... An yes, it takes me over 30 minutes to drive there (I have to go today, have him work on my daughter's Jetta and give me an estimate on my stupid hood damage...).

Jim, OK $10K might be high... although when I was looking for a 190SL, I found many that were over the $5K number.

I sort of wish I'd opted for the 14" wheels when I put new tires on mine. Oh well, I have almost new (still) radials on it. Look great, but the 14s DO look better. I think you can probably source them from Sam at Eurocars for a reasonable price. The wheels from the later sedans (250S) and I think the 230SLs (Jim??) work fine. They take the hubcaps - not sure on the beauty rings.

I have one more carb question... I've seen webers with an adapter plate so that they attach directly to the original air plenum (or horn--whatever it is called) and the original air filter is used. I have heard that performance is better with the air plenum. Is that right? I figured that K&N bolt on filters would be better due to less air resistance.
Luckily when I bought the car, most of the stuff was there ...the washerfluid bag, the jump seats, boot cover. (No clock, luggage, visors or tools). I am hoping to sell my solexes because I need the money to pay for the webers on the credit card. I'll ask Sam to price some 14" wheels for me.

Jims comment on "radio blanking plates got my attention. I'm an incurable flea market / yard sale addict. For those within a reasonable driving distance, the Carlisle Pa. import show and flea market can still produce bargains in old Mercedes parts, radios, etc. I buy old Becker or Blaupunkt radios if they have bezels or knobs just because these parts are hard to find. Sometimes, one vendor will have an old Blaupunkt "from a Porsche" for $200-$300, then I'll walk around and find the same or similar unit from another vendors 'Bucket-o-radios' for $10-$20.
Often, a vendor will have boxes full of misc. German parts and if you find something that will fit your 190SL you may get it for a lot less than what sells on Ebay. (Especially if the seller doesn,t want to drag all those boxes back home!) I do save any parts I remove from my old cars if they aren't totally destroyed or useless.
A word of caution about Hemants mention of K&N air filters.
I have heard that K&N are fine for racing applications where it is expected to have to tear down and rebuild an engine frequently but not so good for road going vehicles because they pass more dirt along with the extra air. I've never used K&N filters so maybe others in this group could provide further insight on this.
Happy Motoring,
Mark DiSilvestro
3 Benzes
2 DKWs
1 Sunbeam

First on the wheels; I use 230SL wheels. The hubcap will fit but you need to buy new trim rings. The wheels should cost $30-40 each plus shipping and they should be available from the following sources: Robert Rose [mercedes280sl@hotmail.com];
Michael Medill [info@mercedesusedparts.com]; Eurocars [eurocars@itis.com]. Trim rings cost about $13 each (reproduction) at Star Quality.

I use and adapter and the original air horn and air cleaner. Performance is not the reason, I dislike the roar of the carburetors and I like the look of the original setup. My air horn has been modified to connect the carburetor bowl vent to the air plenum. I found that this was important, Bill found that it make no difference. If you use the original air horn and have problems of missing under heavy acceleration, we and discuss it further.

about the air vent "discussion". Jim, how did you make the modification to connect it to the air plenum? Reason I ask is this: When the engine is hot, it runs like a champ. But until that time, it stumbles, hesitates, and misses under heavy acceleration. Don't know if it's related. I DO remember the discussion about what the air vent does/doesn't do...

You might also ask Sam at Eurocars about trim rings. He chastized me when I told him I bought my repros at Star - said he has a better repro for less money.

My air horn has an aluminum "U" channel welded at the correct spot and then ground flat with the base. It was done before I owned the car and for 20 years, I thought it was the way they all were. I doubt that this has anything to do with your cold hesitation. Does it change with the choke in or out?

I suppose I should jump into this discussion but dno't know where to start. Bill, cold hesitation. How long has it been since you've driven it hard on the highway? I get cold hesitation under two conditions. Carbon/soot buildup from low speed driving around town ... the car runs rich at slow speed and when my valve adjustment gets off by one or two thousandths. I set my valves cold at .004 intake and .008 exhaust. With number 4 exhaust just closed and 4 intake just about to open set #1 intake at .004 AND exhaust at .008 ... #1 will be at TDC and you can check that with the camshaft notch. Continue likewise with the other 3 cylinders following the firing order.

I concur with the 14" wheels. I've been using 70/205 14s for 15 years. I use the k & N filters, but I've polished my manifolds and cylinder head. They are very noisy in fact under full throttle you cannot carry on a conversation with your front seat passenger. Stock filter works fine until you mess with the airflow. Good tires and good shocks are essential to making this car stable on the road.
and this assumes that the bushings and king pins, idler arm, steering box and shock absorber and serviceable.

Re the $5k vs $10K in parts, well Jim uses his wrenches more than I do. After I did the engine and tranny rebuild I had K & K Restorations put 2,100 hrs of labor into my car and their parts list exceeded 5 single spaced sheets.

Why do we do it? I had my 190 SL on the road this week for the second time in a year. I drove it last october in the William & Mary homecoming parade and drove it to work Mon, Tue and Wed this week. It is not as fast nor as nimble as today's newest MBs, but it is as comfortable and it is Beautiful. The lines and complex curves are a work of art. The front fenders curve in three directions. Everyday I meet strangers on the road rolling down their windows with comments such as "the most beautiful car I've ever seen."

Cheers

I suppose I should jump into this discussion but don't know where to start. Bill, cold hesitation. How long has it been since you've driven it hard on the highway? I get cold hesitation under two conditions. Carbon/soot buildup from low speed driving around town ... the car runs rich at slow speed and when my valve adjustment gets off by one or two thousandths. I set my valves cold at .004 intake and .008 exhaust. With number 4 exhaust just closed and 4 intake just about to open set #1 intake at .004 AND exhaust at .008 ... #1 will be at TDC and you can check that with the camshaft notch. Continue likewise with the other 3 cylinders following the firing order.

I concur with the 14" wheels. I've been using 70/205 14s for 15 years. I use the k & N filters, but I've polished my manifolds and cylinder head. They are very noisy in fact under full throttle you cannot carry on a conversation with your front seat passenger. Stock filter works fine until you mess with the airflow. Good tires and good shocks are essential to making this car stable on the road.
and this assumes that the bushings and king pins, idler arm, steering box and shock absorber are serviceable.

Re the $5k vs $10K in parts, well Jim uses his wrenches more than I do. After I did the engine and tranny rebuild I had K & K Restorations put 2,100 hrs of labor into my car and their parts list exceeded 5 single spaced sheets.

Why do we do it? I had my 190 SL on the road this week for the second time in a year. I drove it last October in the William & Mary homecoming parade and drove it to work Mon, Tue and Wed this week. It is not as fast nor as nimble as today's newest MBs, but it is as comfortable and it is Beautiful. The lines and complex curves are a work of art ... the front fenders curve in three directions. Everyday I meet strangers on the road rolling down their windows with comments such as "the most beautiful car I've ever seen."

Cheers

No kidding! The noise of the engine is unbelievable under full throttle! It is performing great though. There was a ton of noises coming from all over the place...squeeking and rattlings and whinings when I first started driving it on Monday. As I drove it many of those noises went away. I will have to put the car up on jack stands this weekend and lube all the parts recommended in the service manual and check out the condition of the suspension and steering. I'm also just getting used to not having power steering on a manual transmission...not enough hands to drink coffee on the way to work!

Hemant

There are 27 grease fittings on my 190 SL!

Robby

OK, Robby: I'm about 1-1/2 miles from the highway. That means that everytime I go out, I have 3 miles of 25mph idle driving on the engine before I get out to the highway. By the time I make the light and get on the highway, the water temp has made just made the thermosat open. The first hard acceleration is always ugly. The next one is much better, and from there it's great! Intake valves COULD be a problem. When I pulled the adjusting screws, they were beat to cr@p. It's near impossible to get a good adjustment on them. I have to measure the clearance on the rockers rather than between the valve top and the screw because of that. I'm not sure how much difference there is, but it's there. I'll order 4 new ones on my next order from Star. BTW, I pulled my new plugs last night after about 6-700 miles (BP5ES), and they looked GREAT. Much less sooting than the BP6ES plugs.

Jim: I don't use my choke. Engine doesn't like it at ALL.

All: Should I rethink my plans this summer to go to air filters and remove my silencer and stock filter? My reason for doing this is because I'm tired of having to tighten the back carb up to eliminate the intake leak. The front always seems fine, but it also has a support. Jim you mentioned putting a support on the rear? What did you do? I've got to say, this sucker is loud enough now that I can't hear the radio at 75...

Bill … I made a brace for the rear Weber from an old bicycle carrier strut. It goes from the bottom support stud on the carburetor to the same support point on the block used for the front carburetor support. It will just fit between the exhaust manifold pipes.

If you are using the stock air horn and filter, we can revisit the vent holes issue. While talking to Robby last night, he identified the culprit … the stock air filter has a very small and long horn to suck fresh air into the filter. It is smaller than the flexible tube and probably restricts the flow of intake air. If this were correct, that would cause an air pressure differential between the inside and outside of the air horn; causing the full power carburetor problem I observed driving to Niagara two years ago.

If you "never need to use the choke", you carburetors are probably running rich. That would also explain your need for hotter plugs and carbon buildup. Just a thought.

Continue to think about Leadville.

Bill

Valves first ... your cam lobes were hitting the intake adjust screws, correct? Did you see my other post that filing the screws did not solve the problem? The reason the screws were getting hit is because the posts that hold the rocker arms are not flat on the cylinder head. They are resting on the shims that are under the exhaust valves. It is impossible to adjust the valves properly until this is corrected.

Doesn't sound like you have any carbon buildup. There are times I'd drive my car around town for weeks without getting it over 45.

I use K&Ns because the weight of the air silencer kept creating intake manifold air leaks. Even with a bracket supporting the carbs. Jim manages his just fine. I had nothing but problems until I got rid of the silencer.

Robby

Ron Rapp at the SL Auto Haus has those valve adjusting screws for 3 bucks and some change each.

Robby

OK, I'll pull the valve cover tonight and look again. By the way, the estimate on my hood damage from the valve cover was only $150 and 1 week. He says the paint is so thick on the hood he'll have to build the spot up SLIGHTLY with some super-dude-dog bondo he has. I'll check and see what, if anything, is causing the valve problem.

Do you have a contact/email/phone number/webpage for Ron? I haven't used him before.

Jim, I've done a BUNCH of fiddling with the carbs over the last year. Leaned them out a lot and spent some time on the phone with Will about them. I have leaned the idle and main jets. I'll also check my jets out I may have a spare set of 105s or 110s. Will insists that the choke shouldn't be needed except when it's REALLY cold. I DO worry about running too rich, because, as you note, I suspect that's my carbon problem on the plugs. Gas mileage stinks too.

I think I may still give the filters a try. Robby, what did you do with the valve cover breather? Put a hose on it? That's what my '66 250S had!

I've made reservations for Leadville, so right now, we're planning upon going. Work may have an impact on it, but right now we're going. Have a 2 br suite reserved! Girls are REAL excited. They are 15 and 17, and when they looked up "shopping" in Leadville and found "Diamond Shamrock" (a Southwest convenience store chain headquartered here in San Antonio) listed, they KNEW big fun was in store! NOT!

Bill

Ron can be contacted at
Ron Rapp
E-mail Address(es):
slautohaus@oasisonline.com

Re the breather Yes I have about 30" of black hose on it.

Robby

Robby,

Just pulled the valve cover. There is nothing under the "posts" that support the rocker arms. They are flat on top of head, and there is clearance between them and the exhaust valve bottoms.