How much would you pay for a MW pump that was tuned to give say 150 HP at the wheels?


I know there are several shops in the US that have the knowledge and equipment to tune the MW pump for more power, but likely have not invested time in examining the pump due to a perceived lack of demand. Hopefully the data from this post can be used to show that there is interest and $$ in performance tuned MW pumps.

giles charges around 600CDN for a VE pump rebuild (Volkswagen)



to compare, the finnish will cost upwards of $2k (after shipping, customs, etc...)






it's not cheap. I don't want to see how much plungers and whatnot would cost. We're talking bosch here, afterall.

A stock rebuild costs about $1000, so maybe my price poll is low. I was thinking more of a performance IP adjustment rather than a full rebuild though.

Up to $200 for labor and gaskets. 150 is easy by just turning some settings and/or removing the limiter arm. Removing the oil filter housing for access is harder than tuning the MW pump.

What would be involved in a "performance tuneup" that we cannot do ourselves? If we just remove the rack limiter, tweak the TC as much as it will go before idle problems develop, what else is there to do? I think what we really need are bigger plungers to pump more fuel. It seems that 10mm plungers may be available, so maybe we should follow it in this direction..

EDIT: I voted for 600plus assuming a rebuild with bigger elements. I'd actually pay at least double that.

It seems that 10mm plungers may be available, so maybe we should follow it in this direction

Only problem with that idea is the RW governor probably can't control it. Nobody has tried yet so it may or may not work well enough to be daily drivable. I'm sure it would work good enough to be a dragstrip queen.

Only problem with that idea is the RW governor probably can't control it. Nobody has tried yet so it may or may not work well enough to be daily drivable. I'm sure it would work good enough to be a dragstrip queen.

Well, in this case it seems to me the best thing to do would be to either modify the RW governor to control it, or to possibly use a different governor. What about the governor out of the same MW pump that the 10mm elements came out of? Are all MW pumps not the same as far as the interface between the pump and governor is concerned? Would either of these ideas stand even a remote chance of working? And what sort of driveability problems would result from having the governor being overpowered by the engine? Its ungoverned above 1000 anyway.. is the problem not being able to hold a steady idle? Is a jumpy idle really a big problem?

Nobody has put in 10mm elements yet, so, the answers to those questions are still unknown for now. It might run like normal, it might make the engine run away or anything in between.

It would be awesome if somebody would do it and find out. :D

Nobody has put in 10mm elements yet, so, the answers to those questions are still unknown for now. It might run like normal, it might make the engine run away or anything in between.

It would be awesome if somebody would do it and find out. :D install compression releases on the cylinders. problem solved.

to compare, the finnish will cost upwards of $2k (after shipping, customs, etc...)

Keep in mind that they add external adjustments, and you can produce 400HP from that $2k pump. I wouldn't spend all that much for $150HP that I could tinker with myself. Now, if they could do things like remove the high RPM fuel cutoff I would do the $400-600.

BOSCH recommends a specified adjustment order when setting up the pump. I am thinking that if this order was followed then more power, with out side effects like poor return to idle could be gained.

BOSCH recommends a specified adjustment order when setting up the pump. I am thinking that if this order was followed then more power, with out side effects like poor return to idle could be gained.
I agree, if nothing else the bench can play around with the system on their bench, see how it responds, and tweak it MUCH faster than we can. They also have numbers to represent performance vs our 0-60 or some such.

Nobody has put in 10mm elements yet, so, the answers to those questions are still unknown for now. It might run like normal, it might make the engine run away or anything in between.

It would be awesome if somebody would do it and find out. :D

It is possible to run calculations to figure out if the idle governor will be effective with elements 2x the size.. Its not simply a matter of "just try it", unless you want to make it that way.. I just don't know where to start calculating. It seems, theoretically, that as you increase the plunger size, a decreasing variation of the rack position causes a greater variation in the amount of fuel injected. Therefore, if you have bigger plungers, you need a more sensitive governor to compensate... or do you? It basically becomes a function of how quickly the governor can respond to rpm increases/decreases compared to a function of how quickly the rpm increases/decreases with a given fuel input... and a few recursions and recombinations thereof... It seems like if the governor can't move the rack proportionally to the speed of the rpm increase/decrease (that is the rapidity with which the rpms change.. "derivative of rpms"), then the governor can't govern effectively... This data must be available somewhere... after all, the method used for engineering this thing originally was not trial and error...

Has anyone ever taken a MW pump to a Bosch injection shop and asked them to make performance adjustments?? or would the injection shop refuse to do such work on account of liability/emissions/cold feet? would a 'bench test' machine be able to predict the results, (to some extent) and be useful in calibration.. it must be, that is unless each family of injection pump has a very narrow window of published specifications, beyond which the tech would be guestimating.. I don't really know that want HUGE power, just a bit more torque in the low end.. and seeings how I have not really played with my IP, I can not really ask for even that...

I want huge power =D, if the 617 is good for 400hp I intend to take it there... only problem is $$

GB not knockin you or anything. But id like to see you try and push out 400hp out of amotor with 375k miles.

GB not knockin you or anything. But id like to see you try and push out 400hp out of amotor with 375k miles.

It'll be great for that first revolution....

I'll try to enquire about a "performance tune" when I visit the injection shop this week.

Hi Everyone

Glad to have been contacted by Monomer


I will do some research into this and i think i can come up with some
new plungers for everyone.

i must warn you guys though, New Plungers from Bosch are expensive
to the tune of about $100-$150 each + the cost of disassembling the
entire pump to install the new plungers and possibly new Delivery
Valves.

i pose a question of the pumps that have been done before from
Finland, does he install new larger plungers?
if you want recalibration of your pumps in terms of performance
then i can and have done this already, but the 5.5mm plungers
in these pumps are very limited to how much i can increase it.

i have done quite a few in the past and driven several with excellent
better than stock driveability.

hope this helps eveyone

Giles

i pose a question of the pumps that have been done before from Finland, does he install new larger plungers?
Yes. So far as we can tell the Finns have only tweaked the M pump. They install 7mm elements. They also add external adjustments as well, but I don't have any detailed information on that...

Yes. So far as we can tell the Finns have only tweaked the M pump. They install 7mm elements. They also add external adjustments as well, but I don't have any detailed information on that...

Ignorant questions:

What are the main differences between the M/MW pumps, and do the Finns choose the M pump due to availability, or for some other performance reasons?? also why is it that that they had two different style IP's??

What are the main differences between the M/MW pumps, and do the Finns choose the M pump due to availability, or for some other performance reasons?? also why is it that that they had two different style IP's??
Not an ignorant question at all! :) The MW pump was used on all US spec OM61x engines. In Europe the NA diesels use the M pump, while the turbo diesels used the MW pump. For the OM60x series of engines, US and Europe both use the M pump. So the Finns use the M pump mostly for availability. Also, they are mostly modding the OM60x series as it is a more modern engine design (crossflow head, etc) and that requires the M pump. Since they mostly use the M pump they have managed to find a supplier for custom 7mm elements (6mm is the max available from Bosch that we know of).

As to why there are two different styles of pumps... not so sure on that. Personally, I think the progression to the M pump was due to a better governor design that has more desirable characteristics for cars instead of trucks. I have no evidence of this though...

Hope that helped!

I'm glad I asked, thanks John for taking the time to answer that question.
Jason

So being familiar with other than the pump in question, I might be way off but, ...

In pumps I've messed with (CAT), there is a cam, the profile of the lobes determine the injection rate. Higher RPMs need a faster injection rate to make up for the "port effect", that delay that occurs between the pressure pulse at the pump and the pulse hitting the nozzles (yes steel lines do stretch).

For more fuel, usually turning up the rack will allow more max. fuel, basically allowing more stroke of the plunger = higher fuel volume. The aneroid / ALDA will limit this vs mainfold pressure, another adjustment. The throttle pedal is basically moving a mechanical governor, and the limit of that governor or pedal travel is what is referred to as "turning up the rack".

There is usually only a little adjustment available to turn up the rack, after which larger plungers will be necessary to increase the fuel volume per stroke. If too large a plunger is used it will create more stress on the lifter and cam plus being hard to regulate with your foot. Further, the nozzles would need to be matched to the new injection profile and volume.

Am I wrong in applying this to a bosch M pump? I've done this before, but a 10.4l direct-injection CAT is a little different from a 3l Mercedes I'm sure, ... would be fun to get into my spare pump and see what can be done though.

So far no one has found plungers between 5.5 and 10mm for the MW pump. 10's seem much to large, and the stock 5.5's cannot deliver more than 200HP it seems, and no one in the USA has hit that figure yet with a dyno any of us have seen posted. A simple change to a M myna pump with no other changes puts a proven 140 RWHP, and plenty left over from the pump if you want it. A myna pump is about $2K. This is all for a 617-95X.

well, why not MAKE them?



I've never seen the inside of a m/mw pump. Anything that bosch makes, I'm sure can be dup'd for cheaper (esp. with tool/die/machine shops needing any work possible)


sounds like some lathe turning, heat treating, and grinding.

well, why not MAKE them?
$$$$$

I've never seen the inside of a m/mw pump. Anything that bosch makes, I'm sure can be dup'd for cheaper (esp. with tool/die/machine shops needing any work possible)

sounds like some lathe turning, heat treating, and grinding.
I think you underestimate the tolerances involved. I can't give you exact numbers, but this isn't something you can take to your average (or even excellent) machine shop. You have to find manufacturers of other diesel components, and get them to make it. There are some in China that are willing, but I don't remember who it was. Then you run into minimum quantity orders.

Even then the quality will not be up to Bosch levels. For example, the Myna Diesel 7mm elements are available for purchase on their own, and they reportedly don't have the same consistency in injection delivery (idle is rougher, etc).

My $.02

and the stock 5.5's cannot deliver more than 200HP it seems,

...........since the engine currently puts out 123hp, I'd be thrilled with 200 hp. If the stock MW pump can do that.........why spend a fortune on more?

As you mentioned, nobody has even come close to that figure with a verifiable dyno run at 150 hp at the wheels.

$$$$$


I think you underestimate the tolerances involved. I can't give you exact numbers, but this isn't something you can take to your average (or even excellent) machine shop. You have to find manufacturers of other diesel components, and get them to make it. There are some in China that are willing, but I don't remember who it was. Then you run into minimum quantity orders.

Even then the quality will not be up to Bosch levels. For example, the Myna Diesel 7mm elements are available for purchase on their own, and they reportedly don't have the same consistency in injection delivery (idle is rougher, etc).

My $.02

Bosch arnt doing anything to spectacular. They use the same lathes and grinders that can be found at any machine shop that's properly tooled up.


Bosch quality? Have you SEEN what they're India nozzles look like?


tolerances can be held to a millionth pretty easily these days. Someones gotta know a friend in the trade, usually you can abuse the machines "after hours" (or atleast, I did)

When we used to order Danley die punches, they were $15/each. Each were ground to a the ten thousandth. All were hardened to 65hrc (if I remember correctly) before grinding.


High speed machining is cheap.

tolerances can be held to a millionth pretty easily these days.

This is a factually incorrect statement.

Just for the record, you'd be talking about .000001".

Name a single machine shop that can hold that tolerance.........please.

Had a OM 352A 5 cylinder pump overhauled at Delco Diesel OKC.

They installed a revised torque plate IIRC and all new plungers...$1800.00 4 years ago.


.

This is a factually incorrect statement.

Just for the record, you'd be talking about .000001".

Name a single machine shop that can hold that tolerance.........please.



I've seen grinders do it.


would an injection pump need that kinda accuracy? not really. getting down to a ten thousandth is easier than you may think...

I've seen grinders do it.


would an injection pump need that kinda accuracy? not really. getting down to a ten thousandth is easier than you may think...

I don't believe you have seen a grinder achieve .000001". And, if so.........I'd like the address of this grinder. The number is far less than the best possible surface finish that can be achieved with stone and there is no measuring equipment that is easily obtained to verify a size to .000001".

No, the injection pump does not need that accuracy. And getting down to .0001" (which is 100X your quoted figure) is difficult but not impossible.

I've been in this business for 20 years and the difficulties of achieving .0001" on bores is well known to me.

I don't believe you have seen a grinder achieve .000001". And, if so.........I'd like the address of this grinder. The number is far less than the best possible surface finish that can be achieved with stone and there is no measuring equipment that is easily obtained to verify a size to .000001".

No, the injection pump does not need that accuracy. And getting down to .0001" (which is 100X your quoted figure) is difficult but not impossible.

I've been in this business for 20 years and the difficulties of achieving .0001" on bores is well known to me.
AAA gauge blocks are accurate to high tolerance (± 0.00005 mm or 0.000002 in) and used to establish standards.


my mistake, as these are lapped.



anyways; my point still stands. Bosch isn't some magical company. They use the same equipment found in many other shops.

Sounds like you guys are Really getting ripped to be charged 150 Per Element for a new one....:eek:

I have a Injection equipt supplier here in the UK that will supply Genuine Bosch elements for 25 pounds Sterling each, Thats around 50 bux...:D--Obviously, Not including fitting:).

Easy enough to fit yourself anyway, BUT the pump will Have to be set up correctly afterwards, but you'll save yourself money by doing all the strip/rebuild work yourself--Only 'bench' time to pay for

All you need is the Element number, Its marked on the control-flank of the plunger--You may need a magnifying glass if your eyes are getting tired like mine:D....

As for bigger elements, If you can get/find a number, of an element that has the same characteristics apart from fuel volume/diameter then I'll see what I can do--Don't forget--The element can also control the advance in relation to speed/load due to the cut at the upper face as well as the helix cut, and this will have a bearing on torque and smoke etc at low engine speeds....:)