Well I put fixing the 300td off until the parts arrive on Tuesday, so instead I finally got around to putting all the turbo bits together and made myself a 240DT. You can see some photos here (http://picasaweb.google.com/GWCullen/240DTurbo)

I used a manifold I picked up in Sweden from STT that made a turbo kit for the 240/300D back in the day.

The turbo is from a Volvo 850 and is a TD04HL-15g, its a little bit big and does have a bit of lag, but it was what I had in the shed.

I adjusted the full load limit screw 3 times and only saw my EGT's go down, from about 950f, to 900f to 850f. This is with the ADA removed, I have a ALDA to put in its place to reduce off boost smoke. I thought well I'm only running 6psi of boost so I need to remove the limiter, I did and now the EGT's are max 800f. I just can't seem to get the pump to really squirt more fuel.

It does not feel like there is that much more power, and I think its because I don't have enough fuel being injected. Anyone have any ideas on how to increase the fuel output or why I'm not getting enough fuel?

Yes I know the engine is going to die, and the turbo motor has like way more stuff to make it live long with the added power from the turbo.......only positive stuff please.

How DARE you modify a non-turbo engine! Don't you know that will KILL IT!!!!! j/k j/k :D

Have you advanced the injection timing at all yet?
Those EGTs sound really low. You said over at $chuman that you use a multimeter and chart, since your EGTs went down after adjusting the full load screw I'd double check your gauge accuracy/settings and make sure you are reading the chart correctly (no offense).

...You said over at that you use a multimeter and chart, since your EGTs went down after adjusting the full load screw I'd double check your gauge accuracy/settings and make sure you are reading the chart correctly (no offense).
:eek::eek: I'd strongly suggest budgeting for a gauge in the near future!! Also, I'd check the battery in your multi-meter. Low batteries will cause all kinds of crazy problems with those. Not to mention that unless you have a *very good* multimeter they aren't very accurate around the mV level that thermocouples operate at.

Ohhhh Forced don't you wish you could add tone to the text, but thanks for the reply. I know your both helpful and knowledgeable, so no offense taken.

I'll grab another meter next time I go for a drive and test it against the one I have. I think I have an analog mv gauge in the lab somewhere, now I just have to find it.

The strange thing is there is like no smoke!! I opened the pump to put the limiter back in, (a bit harder going in then out) and decided to fire her up and see how far the rack is moving. Well it looks like this is it for my pump, there is just no extra rack movement:(:(. Limiter is back in and the ALDA is shimmed and slightly adjusted.

I'm heading to the pub in a few and will see if things are a any better.

Ohhhh Forced don't you wish you could add tone to the text, but thanks for the reply. I know your both helpful and knowledgeable, so no offense taken.

Yeah, it can be very hard not to sound like an @ss when all I can use is text. :o

Some pumps just have nothing left to give. I removed the rack limiter from my OM616 parts pump and it looked to gain 30% more travel without it. Yet when I removed the limiter from my engine's pump I gained no noticeable power or smoke at all.

It's my understanding that the 616 IP's installed on MB vans (207d, 307d, 407d) put out more fuel than the IP's on the cars. Might work if you can find one.

It would be nice to find a om616 M pump as I have the specs somewhere on the mods required by STT. Then it would be like a known setup and I would have ~ 100hp :D But all the parts cost me about 150 bucks so I'm not really looking to spend much money on this, it was just a case of I have the stuff so why not make it work.

You could try the delivery valve modification discussed on superturbodiesel to get more power: http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=86

Your 616 may not make it to 500K now, but I bet it could still make it to 300K running a reasonable boost like 6 psi. (Get an EGT probe though) :)

I have been thinking about the DV mod, but I want to do a bit more research on them first, as this is my daily driver.

Now I bet you can guess why I was not getting tons of extra fuel. About a month ago I ran through two tanks of B20 and it must have cleaned up the tank a little as the primary filter was a bit plugged. It seems that it would flow enough for the stock fuel requirement but not for the extra fuel I was trying to get.

I replaced the filter, the limited is back in and adjusted about two full turns from all the way in and I can make a little smoke under full boost. :):)

I have an EGT gauge, its just a millivolt reader. For a J type thermalcouple like I have, ~30mv is 1000f and I was able to just hit that after a long long hill in 4th going about 70mph when I lifted. I'm going to up the boost in the next few days to ~8 psi and up the fuel until I get to about 950F after a long long pull on the highway, with the AC on.

I filled up the tank yesterday and even with all the testing and what not (about 1/3tank was with the turbo) I'm still getting 33.8mpg!! I love diesel.

I'm going to install a pressure gauge after the filter and see if the lift pump is keeping up with the extra demand, I think it is now that the filter has been replaced but we'll see.

If anyone is interested I've added a few more photos, the down pipe, exhaust shield, oil line and thermalcouple support, ALDA and oil feed to turbo.

I hope that if anyone else decides to do a 240 turbo these photos will help.

I've just added them to the bottom of the album.

http://picasaweb.google.com/GWCullen/240DTurbo

Well I took my first long trip with the car and I did not have a single problem. I drove almost all back roads, with a max speed of 55 and a few times of 65. Its so nice to have the power to go up hills now, especially with the AC on.

At the end of the trip it was time to fill up. About a third of the tank was testing the fuel settings, lots of full throttle to redline..... the rest was the non stop 4 hour drive to NY and back. I'm still getting just over 33mpg!!!! I hope that I can do a little more tuning and get a little better mileage out of her.

What sort of EGT's are people aiming for on cruise. At 65mph, 3psi boost, with AC on; my egt is about 700*F.

Should I try for lower, higher, the same? What is best for economy?

Sounds like you got it dialed in nicely! As I remember, maximum diesel effeciency is at 600 deg. but 700 is pretty close. You might be able to open up the exhaust or optimize your intake train to get some more air in there and lower the temps a tad.

Graham,
Don't mean to hijack your thread, but can you point me at any other sources of info on Turboing a 240, i.e. the kit you reference, and / or modifying a 300 exhaust manifold?
Do you have any plans on adding an intercooler and turning up the boost?
I have a '79 240 4-speed, and a couple of turbos in the shed...
not to mention 200k miles in a 95 wagon..
Mark

Mwoodland, have you looked at the link with my photos from the conversion? It shows all the parts needed, but I'll list them with word here and not photos.

First you need a turbo, I'm using a TD04HL with a 15g compressor wheel, its bit big on the compressor side but works well with lots of lag. A T3 with a trim 40 would be good as well, thats what STT used in there kit back in the 80's.

You'll need an exhaust manifold and as I see it you could use one from a 300dt and braze up the 5th hole. I used a manifold from the STT kit I found in Finland.

You need to get an oil supply from the oil filter housing either buy making an adapter like the one in my photos that taps off from the line to the oil pressure gauge or get the rear plate that bolt onto the oil filter housing from a 300dt, it has a tapped hole to feed oil to the turbo.

You have to have a place for the oil to go once it leaves the turbo, back to the pan! I used a O2 sensor bung and a -10 AN adapter for I think m22? but I can't remember it was something I had in stock. I also welded on a -10 AN fitting to the stock oil return tub from the Saab (where I got my turbo).

Then you'll need some piping for the crankcase vent, intake and air filter. Again it was all stuff I had laying around.

Your intake is a bit different then mine is and will be less restrictive and has the hole in a different location.

You'll have to get an EGT probe and gauge so you can make sure your not going to melt anything after you turn up the fuel.

I also used a ALDA from a 300td to turn the fuel back down after I adjusted the rack limiting screw. This screws right in place of the atmospheric fuel compensator the sits on top of the injection pump.

I think thats about everything.

About intercooling, I may in the future if I turn the boost up a lot more, but this is a daily driver for me (I'm about to drive to Seattle in fact) so I need it to live for awhile and I know that at 8psi the same as the STT kit) the engine should outlast the body.

A 95 huh, thats funny I'm just finishing up a resto on one right now. You should put your location in your profile, if your on the way to Seattle I might be able to stop by and show you the setup.

Have you had a chance to get any 0-60 times? I have gotten my 240 to the point where I need nitrous or a turbo and was wondering how much the turbo did for yours. You will be slightly crippled by the higher rear-end ratio, but I am curious to see if it would be worth doing.

thanks

Well I have to say the turbo is great. I know that with the EGT's at close to 1100*F and around 10psi of boost I am making at least 100hp at the crank. STT was making 100hp and 186nm with 8psi. I will be towing with my car so will be keeping my 3.69 diff and going with a 5 speed.

Right now it looks like a t5 would work or the 265 BMW tranny, but thats for later. Right now I'm working on an intercooler to help bring down the EGT's, a Volvo 240 radiator and Sierra Cosworth 2wd intercooler. I'll try and get a 0-60 time later this week, but I can tell you it was worth every cent I put into it. I just drove over 3200 miles across the country and averaged over 30mpg and about 65mph, and could even pass people easily at 70 going up hill.

Any idea what your exhaust manifold pressure, and intake manifold air temps are at various boost levels?

I get the impression that you are having engine cooling problems. I have an aluminum core radiator, a custom 160* thermostat, an aluminum fan and clutch from a 617 turbo, and I have found that the AC condenser fins are so dense that it is causing excessive air restriction to the radiator.

Do your EGTs ramp up to 1100* fast? (not in proportion to engine speed) or dose it clime with the rpms (power increases, then temp increases). I have done a lot of tuning a MW pump and governor and I have a good feel for what the adjustments do for me on MY pump, I am curious what you have adjusted or more importantly what you have not adjusted to increase your fuel delivery after adding the turbo.

I have my NA-616 MW set to:

Full load limiter removed
Torque control at 2 turns IN
Main Spring (High Idle) at aprox 3 turns IN
Low idle turned IN aprox ½ turn
ADA removed and a manual set screw for adjustment installed for fine tuning
Lift pump fuel pressure is at 14 Lbs under power and 17-18 at idle
The throttle stop is turned IN all the way (DO NOT DO THIS AS DAMAGE CAN ACCURE)
Timing is advanced as far as I dare ( not sure where it is, but just below nailing point when the throttle is snapped).

I have also balanced the cylinder power (“tuning delivery valve”) and shimmed up # 1 element .005 to retard it a touch, (It always has been a nailer, .005 up did the trick and slowed the EGT clime speed and rate quite a bit).

It starts good. Driving in town I stay under 600*. I normally drive 70-75 MPH on the highway with the AC on and on flat ground my EGT is 800*, slight incline it will get to 900* and a long hill I will see 1000* and a decrease in speed to 70 MPH. I am getting a good 30MPG average, and only a trace of smoke if I lug it starting off or really put my foot into it and wind it up. Engine coolant temp is at 170-175* indicated on highway with AC on.



It needs more air at high RPM and I have a T3/T4 turbo available to me. Not sure what the trim is. Do you think the T4 compressor is too big? How substantial is your turbo lag? How dose my settings compare to what you have found to work on yours?

Looking forward to the 0-60 time.

The throttle stop is turned IN all the way
That needs to be put back where it was set. The stop does not increase performance in any way, its function is to limit travel and prevent internal linkage binding.

Do you think the T4 compressor is too big?
Yes, by far. A T3 with a 45 or 50 trim compressor will be much more than your engine can use.

FYI, that font is very annoying.

I am making at least 100hp at the crank.

Proof, as in a dyno test is in order before you make claims. Going from 60 some HP to 100 some HP is an improvement of around 40%. Gains like that are possible, but in the spirit of MB's you need to have proof before claiming it to be true. It's a slippery slope you are sliding down otherwise. ;)

FYI, that font is very annoying.[/quote]

Sorry, What font would you prefer?

The stock font that is automatically used.

I compose using word and pasting in. I guess the conversion doesn't work very well. Looks the same on my screen, didn't intend to offend anyone.

I copy into word to spell check, but it does not change the font. Strange.

When I paste into word it says the font is Times New Roman size 12.

Proof, as in a dyno test is in order before you make claims. Going from 60 some HP to 100 some HP is an improvement of around 40%. Gains like that are possible, but in the spirit of MB's you need to have proof before claiming it to be true. It's a slippery slope you are sliding down otherwise.

True, all seat of the pants dyno testing is questionable, but they can indicate an improvement. The problem is when there is something wrong with the engine before the mod that was addressed or masked by the mod.

In this case I am personally more interested in a reference test that MB has specked out (If I remember correctly it should be 0-60 in about 31 seconds) that I can perform and compare it to where I am now to determine if it is worth it to do the mod. I remember seeing the 100HP speck on a web sight for a shop that installed turbo kits on 240Ds over seas. You would drop off the car for a few days and they would install the kit and tune up the IP.

Even if the 0-60 time is not as exciting as expected that might just mean that there is still IP tuning that needs to be done. I posted my IP settings to get a comparison of approaches to tuning. I will amend my setting list to add Force’s appropriate warning to put the throttle stop back.

I am also concerned about what adding the turbo to an engine lubrication system that was not designed for the increased flow demand. There must be an orifice in the fitting to restrict flow? What is the oil pressure at hot idle? It is obviously working but it is a thought I had.

There must be an orifice in the fitting to restrict flow?

Yes, look inside a normal 300D turbo feed line and you will see a 2mm restriction orifice.

Is the orifice in the banjo end or the 2-bolt flange end?

The end that bolts onto the turbo. My VNT from the Sprinter has the restriction built into the turbo housing.

Well I just got back from another 3000+ mile trip in the 240Dt that is over 6500 miles in 24 days!

I don't have any dyno sheets and won;t be getting any unless its less then 25 bucks for the pull and I don't think that is going to happen anytime soon.

I know that with the EGT's at close to 1100*F and around 10psi of boost I am making at least 100hp at the crank. STT was making 100hp and 186nm with 8psi.

That is assuming that STT was giving real numbers.

I don't have a restriction orifice in the turbo feed line and my oil pressure only dropped a little ~.5 bar at hot idle from the previous non turbo levels. In fact after driving over 6000 miles on this oil (a little thin at 5w40 synthetic) and driving in 102 degree heat in death valley a few days ago and cruising up 8 to 10 percent grades for 30min at a time. The oil pressure at idle without the idle increased with the knob and the AC on the whole time was ~ 1.6bar a bit higher then the 0.3Bar mercedes says is OK at idle. The coolant was running a bit hot, 115C was the highest and still OK according to MB. The new rad. is for better cooling and so that I can fit an intercooler in.

My egts have been fine in the north with the humid cooler air, but down in the desert I have not been able to put my foot down all the way as the temp would climb to over 1100F. The turbo lag is well just that lag and a lot of it. Right now I don't even use the waste gate and will see ~14psi max with about 4-5psi at cruise with egts in the 650-800 range depending on speed.

Over the last 6000 miles I have seen all sorts of temps, fuel grades, hills, flats, high altitude and low, stuck in traffic and cruising all day (~18hrs) at 75mph and all in all I have been getting ~31mpg average. Not to bad for the old gal.

Well I just got back from another 3000+ mile trip in the 240Dt that is over 6500 miles in 24 days!

I don't have any dyno sheets and won;t be getting any unless its less then 25 bucks for the pull and I don't think that is going to happen anytime soon.

I know that with the EGT's at close to 1100*F and around 10psi of boost I am making at least 100hp at the crank. STT was making 100hp and 186nm with 8psi.

That is assuming that STT was giving real numbers.

I don't have a restriction orifice in the turbo feed line and my oil pressure only dropped a little ~.5 bar at hot idle from the previous non turbo levels. In fact after driving over 6000 miles on this oil (a little thin at 5w40 synthetic) and driving in 102 degree heat in death valley a few days ago and cruising up 8 to 10 percent grades for 30min at a time. The oil pressure at idle without the idle increased with the knob and the AC on the whole time was ~ 1.6bar a bit higher then the 0.3Bar mercedes says is OK at idle. The coolant was running a bit hot, 115C was the highest and still OK according to MB. The new rad. is for better cooling and so that I can fit an intercooler in.

My egts have been fine in the north with the humid cooler air, but down in the desert I have not been able to put my foot down all the way as the temp would climb to over 1100F. The turbo lag is well just that lag and a lot of it. Right now I don't even use the waste gate and will see ~14psi max with about 4-5psi at cruise with egts in the 650-800 range depending on speed.

Over the last 6000 miles I have seen all sorts of temps, fuel grades, hills, flats, high altitude and low, stuck in traffic and cruising all day (~18hrs) at 75mph and all in all I have been getting ~31mpg average. Not to bad for the old gal. What all do you think can be accomplished with a 617 to start with?

More than 100hp. :D

I know I am sounding like a broken record, but any 0-60 times that I can use to reference to my set up?

I keep bugging you because I was talking to someone else that had installed a turbo, a KKK26 I think, and he said WOW it was powerful and fast. While on a business trip I detoured to take a look at it and he did a reasonable job but as for performance I would beet him every time we lined up. He was so bummed. I guess his car must have run really bad before and the turbo helped a little. His 0-60 was at least 30 sec.

I am glad about the oil pump being able to keep up without an orifice in the turbo oil line.

I will be doing a lot of traveling with my new job and I would like as much steam under the hood as I can get. On nice cool days with dry air I really notice more power. This is why I am looking into a turbo, but if the total gain is not much more than what I have now, it is not worth the reduced reliability. It dose sound like your setup is working very well, Just some numbers I can use to decide, pretty please. :P

Well I don't have any 0-60 times as of yet. but next time I'm out on a flat section of road I'll try and get some for you.

I know the car is faster, as I had the waste gate actuator fail and man was it slow in comparison, but how much faster in real numbers I can't say.

The manual says the 0-60 time for the 240D manual is 24.6 sec + or - 7% with 2 people in the car, so if I'm in the 20 sec range I'll be happy.

Thanks, I could not find a time speck in my owners manual. I remember seeing a post somewhere that showed a page from a MB book and it listed all the W123 cars times.

I seem to remember it reading :

240D Auto @ 32 sec
240D Man @ 31 sec
300D @ 18 sec
300TD @ 14 sec

I would think that going from 67 to close to 100Hp would account for more than 4 sec or am I overestimating the powers affect to actual performance? I would hope that it would be able to equal or beat a 300D @ 87Hp.

I can not find that thread where I saw the 0-60 times. dose anyone have any idea of what I saw or have I lost my mind?

Thank you for humoring me. I am looking forward to your times.....

I have the MB book in front of me

0-60 times

Model Trans 0-60mph Model Year Power Torque

230 Auto 18.8s 77-78 86bhp 116lb-ft
240D manual 24.6s 77-83 62bhp 97lb-ft
240D Auto 27.4s 77-83 62bhp 97lb-ft
280E Auto 12.9s (13.5 Cali) 77-81 142bhp 149lb-ft
280CE Auto 12.9s (13.5 Cali) 78-81 142bhp 149lb-ft
300D Auto 20.8s 77-82 77bhp 115lb-ft
300CD Auto 20.8s 78-82 77bhp 115lb-ft
300TD Auto 21.9s 81-85 120bhp 184lb-ft
300DT Auto 14s 82-85 120bhp 184lb-ft
300CDT Auto 14s 82-85 120bhp 184lb-ft
300TDT Auto 14s 81-85 120bhp 184lb-ft

All times may vary by + or - 7% "The + 7% factor includes possible deviations from permissible engine performance and tire tolerance limits"

Seeing as the stated output from stt is 100hp and 137lb-ft for the 240D turbo kit I theoretically should be in the 18s range for 0-60 time, but with 142,000 miles on the clock I would think it would be more like 19-20s, but well see.

Which would be better for a 240D turbo, a T3 duel entry or a T3 VNT?

No such thing as a T3 VNT.

A T3 ios too big for a 616 anyways. A Garrett T25, KKK K24 or GT2052V (If you want a VNT) are a much better size match.

Any idea what this really is?

http://shop.ebay.com/items/_W0QQ_fromZR46?_nkw=vnt+t3&_sacat=0&_fromfsb=&_trksid=m270.l1313&_odkw=Kkk24+turbo+charger&_osacat=0 (http://shop.ebay.com/items/_W0QQ_fromZR46?_nkw=vnt+t3&_sacat=0&_fromfsb=&_trksid=m270.l1313&_odkw=Kkk24+turbo+charger&_osacat=0)

I am not familiar with turbos at all. If you had a choice which type of turbo would you prefer to use on a 616 application, a duel entry type or a VNT turbo, given it is the correct size for the application?

My naive concern is high exhaust pressure at 4000 +RPM. I normally run the car at 75 mph. I think it puts the engine in the high 3Ks if not the low 4Ks.

Also is there any reason why I should not thermal coat the turbine housing?

A friend of mine is looking for a project for the winter, and if Graminal95's times are reasonable, and at this point I have no reason to doubt they will be, we are thinking of designing a kit for the 616. As picking the correct turbo is most important any thoughts would be great.

I can't view eBay at work so I'll comment on it later tonight.

A dual entry turbo has zero benefit if the manifold is not divided. It actually hurts performance when used with a non divided manifold becasue it obstructs part of the exhaust flow.

A custom header will be made for the turbo mod. I looked at using the stock manifold, and there is room to put the turbo so the manifold dumps (for the most part) right into the turbine inlet with out any radical turns. But I think if it is worth doing you might as well get every little bit there is. An equal length header (separated 2&2 incase of the duel entry) would be better that the stock manifold plus it will afford more placement options.

Any idea what this really is?

http://shop.ebay.com/items/_W0QQ_fromZR46?_nkw=vnt+t3&_sacat=0&_fromfsb=&_trksid=m270.l1313&_odkw=Kkk24+turbo+charger&_osacat=0

That is a VNT25, not a T3. It would be an okay match for the 616 but it is old technology. Modern VNT turbos are much more efficient.

http://www.thedodgegarage.com/turbo_vnt.html

If I had the money and was making a manifold to accept any turbo flange, I would try and get a small VNT from say a 1.8l to 2.0l diesel. My turbo lag is great, but I suspect that when I get a intercooler in and can turn up the fuel more it will be significantly less.

I wonder what a 240D engine with a 4BT P-Pump on it would be like.... Its been done with VW engines...

Good luck getting one to fit!

If I had the money and was making a manifold to accept any turbo flange, I would try and get a small VNT from say a 1.8l to 2.0l diesel. My turbo lag is great, but I suspect that when I get a intercooler in and can turn up the fuel more it will be significantly less.

VNT it will be then. I like the ability to turn it on and off so to speak. It sounds like it would be worth making an adaptor to use a better turbo.

The work will be done over the winter so if anyone comes across a deal on a VNT25, GT2052V please PM me with the details.

My thoughts are to offer a kit for the 616. It would come with a header with the mating flange to match the turbo of your choice, Oil supply lime and required fittings, boost gauge, EGT gauge, Special tools to tune the IP with step by step Video instructions.

I would have mine dynoed to show the output potential, (what ever it may be).

I mention this because it will be extra work building the tooling to consistently reproduce the header, will it not be worth our time or is there enough interested 240D owners?

Good luck getting one to fit!

Well.. spline couplers are available, or can be made... then there's the mounting flange.. All you gotta do is line up the shafts. Whats the mounting surface of a p-pump look like? A bosch rotary pump? 100hp/liter would just about do it..

EDIT: Timing would have to be accomplished "by ear" or some method involving thermocouples and millivolts...

The prechambers are different too.

I wonder if the design is different because the top of the piston has a slightly different shape from the non-turbo to turbo. It would be nice to talk to a Diesel engineer and get a confirmation as to why there is a difference.

On another note, the 5 speed is in the works. I have the bell housing cut up and will be welding it up this weekend. I'll get some photos up as I make progress.

In an earlier post you mentioned a T5 transmission. I am trying to get T5 to link to a 240 and also 300 motor. I have a T5 for a camaro with th extra long shifter. For a 300 the shifter fits directly through the hole of the original shifter. I like to use a broken auto tranny housing and cut it of directly after the pump .
What tranny are you using, what are you making the bellhousing of?

I'm using a getrag 265 from a BMW as its the same ratios Mercedes used in the 5 speed 240's and 300's. A T5 would have worked as well but you will have to make sure the ratios are going to work well with the engine you have. Remember that these engine don't rev to much and if the gap is to big between gears, its going to be harder and less enjoyable to drive.

The bellhousing I'm using is from an early auto and from the getrag. Its going to take 3 peices to make the bell housing work right. I'll be doing some final measurements, cutting and welding tomorrow and hope to have it done by monday, but we all know how long things actually take.

I'll post photos when I get some.

Well I now have a GT2056V for my 240D. I need to research some threads on how others have found to control VNT turbine effectively. I was disappointed after seeing the 617.951 cam specs. I have an MB engine manual coming to see how bad the 616.912 cam is for a turbo. If it is anywhere as bad as the 617 I will wait and have a cam ground. It will most likely require pulling the head and machining the piston valve pockets a touch deeper for the new cam profile to be safe. I guess after 217K it is time for a valve job anyway.

Although I do not mind spinning the engine up on the highway I am very interested in the 5 speed conversion. If the additional power is sustainable within a safe EGT range it would allow for higher vehicle speeds. I also have seen some interesting information on the different 4spt gear ratio combinations that MB used in different production years. The thread is on the Schuman forum. It explains why the newer 240Ds seem a touch quicker than the old ones, other than being worn out that is.

Question: will a 115 exhaust manifold fit on my 123 head? It might be an option for a cheaper turbo friendly manifold.

It explains why the newer 240Ds seem a touch quicker than the old ones

72hp instead of 68hp helps. :rolleyes:

Question: will a 115 exhaust manifold fit on my 123 head?
Any OM61x manifold will fit any OM61x engine.

Well I had my 5 speed in and working perfectly, the only trouble was a vibration at a certain RPM that was a bit annoying. The drive shaft I welded up worked perfectly with no vibration, but that engine vib I just could not figure out. I even made up a cross member for the tranny that used the stock mount. I'm heading back to NH from Seattle today and last night I had to swap back in the tried and true 4 speed. I'll put the 5 speed back in when I have more time to figure out the vib issue.

Anyone have any ideas on a rpm based vib? Does not change with clutch in/out, gear in/out, standing still or highway, its always at a certain rpm.

It must be something on the clutch, pressure plate or flywheel. Are you swapping these with your transmission?It must be something on the clutch, pressure plate or flywheel. Are you swapping these with your transmission?

Thats the funny thing if I take the tranny off and leave the pressure plate in there is no vibration. One of the reasons I choose the 265 is that it has the same input shaft spline so its all the same clutch, pilot bearing and pressure plate as the 4 speed.

Do you have the anti-vibration looks like a flex-disc thing? http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w197/mtupower/300Dmanualtransmission008.jpg

To get the most out of a 240d you need to install a copex turbo!!!!!

http://www.mx6.com/forums/2g-mx6-forced-induction/194308-turbo-mod.html

MTUpower I don't have the drive shaft vibration damper, but the vib is not based on the ds but engine RPM.

Connclark what a great idea I'll go out tomorrow and weld up my turbo that mob is worth like hundreds of extra horses.

On a side note the stock egr manifold for the 240D is very restrictive, I welded up a w115 300D intake and I'm making way more boost now, 8psi at cruise and way more off full throttle power, only trouble is I have to decrease the amount of fuel now as mny EGT's are starting to get a bit high climbing the CO mountains.

http://picasaweb.google.com/GWCullen/Getrag265Tranny#5259835520282297090

Well I had my 5 speed in and working perfectly, the only trouble was a vibration at a certain RPM that was a bit annoying. The drive shaft I welded up worked perfectly with no vibration, but that engine vib I just could not figure out. I even made up a cross member for the tranny that used the stock mount. I'm heading back to NH from Seattle today and last night I had to swap back in the tried and true 4 speed. I'll put the 5 speed back in when I have more time to figure out the vib issue.

Anyone have any ideas on a rpm based vib? Does not change with clutch in/out, gear in/out, standing still or highway, its always at a certain rpm.


when I was researching the getrag swap and modelling everything in Cad I saw a few things that I knew needed to be addressed. the mb pilot shaft and the getrag 265 pilot shaft are different OD. I was going to make a bushing for the getrag. The spline length and engagement looked like a challenge also.

as far as the vibe, I think all swaps ive read about had a vibe in the 1500 to 2000 rpm range in 2nd and 3rd gear. I have learned the shift points to keep mine above 1800 in the next gear and this virtually eliminates the vibration.

the 1500-2000 rpm vibe in mine seems to come from either drive shaft alignment and parts of the trans hitting the tunnel which I suspect is your issue also. I reduced the majority of my vibe issues by spacing the trans down 1/4". the specific RPM yours vibrates at could be a result of a harmonic in the mounts and related to engine weight, and then transfered to enrgy you feel when it touches the tunnel or firewall. since the 240 is lighter I would assume its harmonic will be different frequency so your rpm may be higher or lower than the 300.

Ya I mad a bushing out of hardened steel for the pilot shaft to up it from 12mm to 15mm, I have 4 thou clearance on the bearing ID and pilot shaft OD. The input shaft length was an issue as was the depth of the flywheel, but nothing a bit of cutting and welding could not fix. The Stock pilot shaft sticks out 43mm from the face of the bell housing, thus I need the same on the getrag. You can see all the welding in the photos needed to make it work.

I also had to mod the release bearing holder to move it further back into the bell housing and add extensions where the release bearing sits so that the release arm does not contact the pressure plate.

For me the vib is has nothing to do with the gear or speed. I also can't find any place that the trans is hitting the tunnel or even close to the tunnel (<1 in.). The vib does not change with the type or location of the mount either. I tried volvo engine and trans mounts same vib. tried different cross members, same vib, made up a really snazzy cross member to accept the MB mount, same vib. No mount at all, just supported by jack stand same vib. It does not change with position of trans vert in the tunnel either.

Also I noticed that ever since my exhaust broke at the flex part of the down pipe that I can't make EGT's over 950, where as before I could easily get them to past 1100. I have the turbo exhaust and I thought that it would be open enough but I guess not.

Ya I mad a bushing out of hardened steel for the pilot shaft to up it from 12mm to 15mm, I have 4 thou clearance on the bearing ID and pilot shaft OD. The input shaft length was an issue as was the depth of the flywheel, but nothing a bit of cutting and welding could not fix. The Stock pilot shaft sticks out 43mm from the face of the bell housing, thus I need the same on the getrag. You can see all the welding in the photos needed to make it work.

I also had to mod the release bearing holder to move it further back into the bell housing and add extensions where the release bearing sits so that the release arm does not contact the pressure plate.

For me the vib is has nothing to do with the gear or speed. I also can't find any place that the trans is hitting the tunnel or even close to the tunnel (<1 in.). The vib does not change with the type or location of the mount either. I tried volvo engine and trans mounts same vib. tried different cross members, same vib, made up a really snazzy cross member to accept the MB mount, same vib. No mount at all, just supported by jack stand same vib. It does not change with position of trans vert in the tunnel either.

Also I noticed that ever since my exhaust broke at the flex part of the down pipe that I can't make EGT's over 950, where as before I could easily get them to past 1100. I have the turbo exhaust and I thought that it would be open enough but I guess not.


ok, sounds like you have it covered, maybe you got a bad getrag? Thats a danger when pulling from the yards, you just dont know everything that put it there in the first place.

You mention the length of the input shaft from the mating surface of the bell housing to the end of the shaft. How about the end of the spline taper? could there be too little input shaft end play because the taper is hitting the pilot bearing?

If all that is good then the only time i have seen one vibrate similar to what you are describing the input shaft was not perfectly centered and square to the engine. In that instance there was a difference if the clutch was engaged or disengaged.
I hope you get this figured out as this is a good upgrade option. With a good pattern the bell housing can be sand casted for a reasonable cost. Reasonable being a relative term.

On the used gearbox front, its one of the best trans play wise that I have seen in a long time. The input shaft has virtually no play in it and it runs through the gears great. If it was the tranny itself then I think the vib would occur when the clutch was engaged and not when it was disengaged.

As for the splines, its not hitting the pilot bearing and they are fully engaged in the friction disc. The miss alignment is the only thing I can come up with, but I know the pilot shaft is centered in the bell housing (have a jig made up) the mating surface is flat (machined it on the mill) the bell housing is centered on the engine (another jig/alignment tool), but there still could be a little angle to the pilot shaft, but at 4 thou clearance on the pilot bearing it would not just slide in if it was. When I get back in NH I'll put out of the trunk and try it out all over again.

I really think it would be easier to weld up a bell housing, it is a lot of welding, but casting and machining a new part is a ton of time/money.

Could the new trans be acting like a tuning fork? Instead of an imbalance what do you think about a resonant frequency issue?

If you can get it figured out I can take your specks and have the bell housing cad modeled and a rapid prototype made for a pattern. I have never casted a part as large as the bell housing, mostly two stroke heads, cylinders, and intake manifolds. I have a furnace big enough to heat the amount of aluminum needed but it is not operational yet. I have made molds and had them pored at a local place before and it wasn’t bad. The pain was waiting for him to get enough molds in to justify firing the furnace.

The bottom line is if you can make it work, and we can get some fokes to commit to one each, I can produce them. No BS, price would be 5% above cost to cover my costs in the process. I can provide the modeler so that will save some cost, my guy uses ProE.

If there is interest I will start getting a price estimated. Off the top of my head I think we would need five people to commit to one each for a first run. I have the resources and thought I would offer but this is your project.

Could the new trans be acting like a tuning fork? Instead of an imbalance what do you think about a resonant frequency issue?

If you can get it figured out I can take your specks and have the bell housing cad modeled and a rapid prototype made for a pattern. I have never casted a part as large as the bell housing, mostly two stroke heads, cylinders, and intake manifolds. I have a furnace big enough to heat the amount of aluminum needed but it is not operational yet. I have made molds and had them pored at a local place before and it wasn’t bad. The pain was waiting for him to get enough molds in to justify firing the furnace.

The bottom line is if you can make it work, and we can get some fokes to commit to one each, I can produce them. No BS, price would be 5% above cost to cover my costs in the process. I can provide the modeler so that will save some cost, my guy uses ProE.

If there is interest I will start getting a price estimated. Off the top of my head I think we would need five people to commit to one each for a first run. I have the resources and thought I would offer but this is your project.


I already have a bell modeled in pro/e if you are interested. It is rough but close to whats needed. I stopped working on it becuase the interest was lackluster at best. here's (http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=224417&highlight=getrag+265) a link to my thread from a few months ago when I was looking at doing this

Too bad about the lack of interest. Do people know it would fit a 617 as well?

I would be interested to see how your dimensions compare to Graminal95s prototype. It sounds like between the three of us, if we got the vibration handled and our equipment up to speed we could do it our selves.

Lets see if the vibration issue can be solved before anyone’s hard work changes hands. I am very interested in the possibility of a 5 speed. I am putting a turbo on my 240D as well, but I am going to do some R & D on the PCs and camshaft to try to take full advantage of the turbo over the winter.


Graminal95, thanks for not being afraid to pave the way!

Too bad about the lack of interest. Do people know it would fit a 617 as well?

Most people, including myself, don't want a transmission that has to be cut and welded to work. I'd rather hold out for a genuine 5-speed.

Most people, including myself, don't want a transmission that has to be cut and welded to work. I'd rather hold out for a genuine 5-speed.


AMG used them, thats good enough for me.... they are all getrags after all, and a sandcast bell would be quite comparable to the AMG unit.

I am interested, but the last price estimate of $1000 or so seemed a bit high...

EDIT: Never mind, I thought we were talking about the tranny with the bellhousing cut and welded on.

EDIT: Never mind, I thought we were talking about the tranny with the bellhousing cut and welded on.


s'all right. the topic was jumping back and forth. the other option I was pursueing was a little cheaper. A MB 4 spd bell can be used on the getrag 265 by adding a spacer/adapter between the bell and the getrag. this allows the extra length of the getrag input to be used up. with this setup the MB release bar is too short to go around the getrag and the bimmer release bar is too long to fit in the MB bell. the solution is to use a hydraulic throwout bearing. these are pricey, but cheaper than a big aluminum weld up. the adapter plate is a flat plate with 8 c'bored holes and a couple milled pockets

also for the prop shaft, I think the 3 leg mount spline is the same between the MB and bimmer, I was just going to swap on a spare from an old auto trans I have. Graminal95 might be able to confirm or dismiss this with his setup.

Most people, including myself, don't want a transmission that has to be cut and welded to work. I'd rather hold out for a genuine 5-speed.

The G-18/5 fits so nicely on the OM616 and even though it has a longish throw pattern, once its run in, its butter shift, you just need your fingers, thats all. Works very nice on the Gurkha with the turbo OM616, the ratios are perfect, keeps the turbo spooled nicely and has a nice 5th gear ratio as well bringing the revs down just right but still gives enough capacity for passing without downshift.

The G-18/5 fits so nicely on the OM616 and even though it has a longish throw pattern, once its run in, its butter shift, you just need your fingers, thats all. Works very nice on the Gurkha with the turbo OM616, the ratios are perfect, keeps the turbo spooled nicely and has a nice 5th gear ratio as well bringing the revs down just right but still gives enough capacity for passing without downshift.


if only they were available in the states...... did you ever get the container full of these shipped over? :) and dont foget the shifter and rods..

if only they were available in the states...... did you ever get the container full of these shipped over? :) and dont foget the shifter and rods..

There can't be a better time to get em now, dollar/Rs value is at all time high with a dollar getting your around forty eight rupees. The tranny with shifter and rods cost you around Rs.22K complete. Whatca waitin for? :)

There can't be a better time to get em now, dollar/Rs value is at all time high with a dollar getting your around forty eight rupees. The tranny with shifter and rods cost you around Rs.22K complete. Whatca waitin for? :)


thats like $450, you should get a container together

thats like $450, you should get a container together

It is Rupees, maybe we can co-ordinate this if you can collect up some buyers, I plan on visiting India by December and let me see what I can muster up.

For $450 that sounds like a deal I could go in with. :)

For $450 that sounds like a deal I could go in with. :)

Ditto - especially since I already have the MB 4-speed bellhousing...

The G-18/5 fits so nicely on the OM616 and even though it has a longish throw pattern, once its run in, its butter shift, you just need your fingers, thats all. Works very nice on the Gurkha with the turbo OM616, the ratios are perfect, keeps the turbo spooled nicely and has a nice 5th gear ratio as well bringing the revs down just right but still gives enough capacity for passing without downshift.



Where can I get an engine service manual for your Turbo 616? I am curious if they are using the piston squirters and valves like the turbo 617. Also what cam specks are did they use? Basically, how much of the original OM616 are they using?

The trans sounds like it is what we are all looking for. The price of getting them here and through customs might be a killer though.

Count me in! And I'm not messin' around here, this is for real (assuming a reasonable final price, of course)! Also interested in what the specs on the turbo 616 are, and what it would take to get one into the states.

Where can I get an engine service manual for your Turbo 616? I am curious if they are using the piston squirters and valves like the turbo 617. Also what cam specks are did they use? Basically, how much of the original OM616 are they using?

The trans sounds like it is what we are all looking for. The price of getting them here and through customs might be a killer though.

The engine is basically OM617 turbo minus one cylinder. It shares the same crank modified for 4 cylinder, oil squirter pistons, high pressure chain driven oil pump, sodium filled exhaust valves, 300TD oil cooler etc. Best part is the fuel injection, its an ALDA less all mechanical affair with no electronics. The engine will be replaced with the OM611 by end of this year.

The engine will be replaced with the OM611 by end of this year.

hmmm... is that an opportunity for NOS engines?

Looks like this thread is really taking off.

Well I made it back to NH, with my alternator and battery going caput about 200miles west of Albany on 90 at 11:30pm! I had to follow a big rig for 30 odd miles to get to a service park. I stopped, kept the car running, pulled the voltage reg, extended the brushes a bit but it was no use the alternator was done. I parked her and went to sleep; about 5 hours later I hit the road in daylight, there was just enough battery power to make my turn signal or brake lights work not both. I made it home to vote on tuesday afternoon, and the car had been running for over 28hrs. Its all fixed now but wait a huge pain.

On to the tranny from force motors, for 450 it would be a lot easier then what I have done and cheaper.

As to the trans output flange, I was not able to get the nut loose on the output shaft of the tranny, so I just used the BMW shaft and the MB female spline. It just so happens that the OD of the machines spline part of the MB shaft is almost a perfect fit to the ID of the BMW shaft. So all I had to do was use three pieces of shim stock to align the female spline in the BMW shaft, weld, kiss on the lathe and paint.

LutzTD, I like the cad of the bell its perfect except you should take out the part where there is an indentation at the point where the release arm pivots. I had to cut and weld up my arm so it would go all the way back into the bell housing. I also had to add small extensions for the release bearing to ride on so that the arm would not contact the pressure plate. This really would be a lot easier to explain with photos.

I won't have much time to mess with the 5 speed for sometime, but when I can I'll try and make a DIY of what I have done so far, with photos!

I know I must be missing something here so please bare with me. In an attempt to identify the differences between the MB4 Speed and the 5 Speed that has been identified as a good match to use with the 616/617 power plants, I will list what my assumptions are, based on what I have read and done in real life.

Differences:

The most predominant difference is the input shaft length. The 5 Speed is longer than the 4 Speed, the shaft pilot bearing Dia is smaller.

The out put shaft is different but manageable.

The shifter mounts to the trans not the car body.

Obviously the trans mount and cross member is different but manageable.

Similarities:

( Assumption) the bell housing trans side bolt patterns match, allowing either bell housing to be bolted to either trans?

The input shaft spline is the same

My first thought is to mate the 5 Speed to the 4 Speed bell housing. There would need to be a spacer (as stated in pervious posts) to correct for the input shaft length. If the bolt pattern is the same that is a simple solution. HOWEVER, since there has been a tremendous amount of time spent fabricating a hybrid bell housing and time spent on the tube modeling a new bell housing, I have to believe that there is something I am missing.

What is the problem with using the 4 Speed bell housing and clutch assembly, including the yoke and through-out bearing, and mating the 5 Speed to it via a spacer. I must assume that the sleeve on the 5 Speed, that the through-out bearing slides on, is a different Dia than the 4 Speed, and therefore using the 5 speed through-out bearing would be a logical thought, but I assume that is where the yoke issues come into play. If the 4 Speed clutch assembly was used, there would not be an issue regarding the location of the yoke as it would be right where it always is.

Question: Is it the Through-out bearing that is not allowing the 4 Speed bell housing and clutch assembly to be used?

I am picking up a 300D with trans problems and I am very interested in the 5 Speed conversion, even if I had to cast a new housing. The deal from over seas sounds grate and would probably be the best way to do it, but I want to get a 5 Speed in the car and possibly in my soon to be 4 speed turbo 240D. Since there are 5 Speeds available here I think it makes sense to peruse that path until India bares fruit.

What am I missing?

Differences:

The most predominant difference is the input shaft length. The 5 Speed is longer than the 4 Speed, the shaft pilot bearing Dia is smaller.

correct the 265 is longer and has a smaller diameter pilot shaft

The out put shaft is different but manageable.

this I do not know yet. I looked at two options. a small adapter to change the 3 hole spacing, or use the three hole flange from the MB in the getrag. it looks like it will fit but not tested yet

The shifter mounts to the trans not the car body.

it has a body mount but it is a simple bolt with a rubber isolator, it can be lengthened or shortened with minor fab difficulty

Obviously the trans mount and cross member is different but manageable.

Similarities:

( Assumption) the bell housing trans side bolt patterns match, allowing either bell housing to be bolted to either trans?

trans bolt patterns do not match, but this can be fixed and actually is an advantage to the adapter plate

The input shaft spline is the same

input spline is the same between getrag 265 and MB 4 spd

My first thought is to mate the 5 Speed to the 4 Speed bell housing. There would need to be a spacer (as stated in pervious posts) to correct for the input shaft length. If the bolt pattern is the same that is a simple solution. HOWEVER, since there has been a tremendous amount of time spent fabricating a hybrid bell housing and time spent on the tube modeling a new bell housing, I have to believe that there is something I am missing.

same answer, bolt pattern is different


What is the problem with using the 4 Speed bell housing and clutch assembly, including the yoke and through-out bearing, and mating the 5 Speed to it via a spacer. I must assume that the sleeve on the 5 Speed, that the through-out bearing slides on, is a different Dia than the 4 Speed, and therefore using the 5 speed through-out bearing would be a logical thought, but I assume that is where the yoke issues come into play. If the 4 Speed clutch assembly was used, there would not be an issue regarding the location of the yoke as it would be right where it always is.

MB 4 speed pivot arm is too short, the getrag 265 body is wider spacing the pivot and the slave cylinder farther apart by 1-2 inches, I cant remember exactly

in the other direction the 5 speed pivot also does not fit in the MB 4 spd bell, major aluminum welding and fab would be needed to extend the pivot and slave mounts to fit the 5 speed pivot arm

Question: Is it the Through-out bearing that is not allowing the 4 Speed bell housing and clutch assembly to be used?

throw out from 5 spd can be used if you get the arm to work

my final design uses a hydraulic throw out bearing. I was going to grab one from a chevy and make it fit but I now have a MB 5 so I quit working on it

I am picking up a 300D with trans problems and I am very interested in the 5 Speed conversion, even if I had to cast a new housing. The deal from over seas sounds grate and would probably be the best way to do it, but I want to get a 5 Speed in the car and possibly in my soon to be 4 speed turbo 240D. Since there are 5 Speeds available here I think it makes sense to peruse that path until India bares fruit.

If you decide you want to cast a housing I will offer my modeling services for a copy :) If you know someone with a cnc, it might be cheaper to cut from billet

What am I missing?

for what its worth, a more simple and readily available solution is a 4spd swap with the addition of a low ratio rear. I am currently running a 4 speed with a 2.47 rear and I am more than happy with it. I run 70MPH at 2500 rpm with plenty of power. I can drive 55 at 1800 RPM just fine too and It climbs hills no problem. if I need merge or passing gear I down shift to third and get the same ratio I used to have before the rear gear change. 1st is just fine even with the low ratio.

looks like lutzTD has just about all of it covered.

Differences:

The most predominant difference is the input shaft length. The 5 Speed is longer than the 4 Speed, the shaft pilot bearing Dia is smaller.

correct the 265 is longer and has a smaller diameter pilot shaft

The Pilot shaft is 15mm on the MB and 12mm on the BMW (Getrag 265)

The out put shaft is different but manageable.

this I do not know yet. I looked at two options. a small adapter to change the 3 hole spacing, or use the three hole flange from the MB in the getrag. it looks like it will fit but not tested yet

I think the diameter of the bolt spacing is like 3mm larger on the BMW. I just used the front part of the BMW drive shaft and the back part of the MB.

http://picasaweb.google.com/GWCullen/Getrag265Tranny#5259835830161407458

This is the MB female spine in the BMW shaft, simple shim and weld it.

The shifter mounts to the trans not the car body.

it has a body mount but it is a simple bolt with a rubber isolator, it can be lengthened or shortened with minor fab difficulty

Initially I had a trans mounted shifter using a 3 series shift mount, I thought the vibration was just that mount so I made a body mount for the shifter, it works just as well with the same vibration but much easier to install the trans and to adjust the shifter location.

http://picasaweb.google.com/GWCullen/Getrag265Tranny#5268331320650825890

Obviously the trans mount and cross member is different but manageable.

At first I used the rear offset mounting point on the transmission with a volvo 240 engine mount and just a 1/4in flat stock for a cross member, then trying to get the vibration gone I made this mount to accept the stock MB mount.

http://picasaweb.google.com/GWCullen/Getrag265Tranny#5268331338026080914

http://picasaweb.google.com/GWCullen/Getrag265Tranny#5268331305006857986

Similarities:

( Assumption) the bell housing trans side bolt patterns match, allowing either bell housing to be bolted to either trans?

trans bolt patterns do not match, but this can be fixed and actually is an advantage to the adapter plate

I didn;t and have not been able to look at an old style bell housing from an MB manual, so I can only guess, But an adapter plate could be made if the input shaft length of the 265 is long enough.

The input shaft spline is the same

input spline is the same between getrag 265 and MB 4 spd

My first thought is to mate the 5 Speed to the 4 Speed bell housing. There would need to be a spacer (as stated in pervious posts) to correct for the input shaft length. If the bolt pattern is the same that is a simple solution. HOWEVER, since there has been a tremendous amount of time spent fabricating a hybrid bell housing and time spent on the tube modeling a new bell housing, I have to believe that there is something I am missing.

same answer, bolt pattern is different


What is the problem with using the 4 Speed bell housing and clutch assembly, including the yoke and through-out bearing, and mating the 5 Speed to it via a spacer. I must assume that the sleeve on the 5 Speed, that the through-out bearing slides on, is a different Dia than the 4 Speed, and therefore using the 5 speed through-out bearing would be a logical thought, but I assume that is where the yoke issues come into play. If the 4 Speed clutch assembly was used, there would not be an issue regarding the location of the yoke as it would be right where it always is.

MB 4 speed pivot arm is too short, the getrag 265 body is wider spacing the pivot and the slave cylinder farther apart by 1-2 inches, I cant remember exactly

in the other direction the 5 speed pivot also does not fit in the MB 4 spd bell, major aluminum welding and fab would be needed to extend the pivot and slave mounts to fit the 5 speed pivot arm

If you can cast/machine cheaply that is your best bet, and I can give you some measurements and you should get the trans, bell housings etc. in hand so you can see things for yourself. It really helps a lot to have it all in hand.

Question: Is it the Through-out bearing that is not allowing the 4 Speed bell housing and clutch assembly to be used?

throw out from 5 spd can be used if you get the arm to work

my final design uses a hydraulic throw out bearing. I was going to grab one from a chevy and make it fit but I now have a MB 5 so I quit working on it

If you want to use a nice hydraulic throwout bearing look at Saab 900 form the 80's, its used in a ton of racecars now and easy to find.

I am picking up a 300D with trans problems and I am very interested in the 5 Speed conversion, even if I had to cast a new housing. The deal from over seas sounds grate and would probably be the best way to do it, but I want to get a 5 Speed in the car and possibly in my soon to be 4 speed turbo 240D. Since there are 5 Speeds available here I think it makes sense to peruse that path until India bares fruit.

If you decide you want to cast a housing I will offer my modeling services for a copy :) If you know someone with a cnc, it might be cheaper to cut from billet

That would be one large bill for that billet.

What am I missing?

for what its worth, a more simple and readily available solution is a 4spd swap with the addition of a low ratio rear. I am currently running a 4 speed with a 2.47 rear and I am more than happy with it. I run 70MPH at 2500 rpm with plenty of power. I can drive 55 at 1800 RPM just fine too and It climbs hills no problem. if I need merge or passing gear I down shift to third and get the same ratio I used to have before the rear gear change. 1st is just fine even with the low ratio.

If you want to use a nice hydraulic throwout bearing look at Saab 900 form the 80's, its used in a ton of racecars now and easy to find.


good to know. I will watch for one of these to measure and fit in my models

That would be one large bill for that billet.


I was thinking a wheel billet????? IF you get the machine time for free it would be more cost efficient than a short run of castings I think.

for the output, I think this part will swap. it looks identical other than the bolt circle diameter so the MB one I think will fit and you could use the MB rubber ring and drive shaft

MB 4 speed pivot arm is too short, the getrag 265 body is wider spacing the pivot and the slave cylinder farther apart by 1-2 inches, I cant remember exactly.

So the trans housing would hit the 4 Speed ( external) slave cylinder. To make room the cylinder needs to be moved over 1-2 inches thus the yoke (pivot arm?) would be short on one end, and the travel would be lessened as well. Got it.

If you can cast/machine cheaply that is your best bet, and I can give you some measurements and you should get the trans, bell housings etc. in hand so you can see things for yourself. It really helps a lot to have it all in hand.

Yes. it definitely helps to have all the pieces of the puzzle. lutzTD, Did you say you have been collecting 256s?

Modifying the yoke and relocating the slave doesn’t bother me, I am not fond of hydraulic through-outs they are not easily serviceable. But none the less, it would seem that in this case, a hydraulic through-out would solve a lot of problems in a manner that would require the least amount of fabrication and over all work.

I will see if the foundry I have used in the past is still around and get an idea of the pore cost. I will also get a guestimate from my rapid prototyper for a SLS model to use as a pattern for the sand mold. If designed right, with a proper mold and a good pore there shouldn’t be much machining needed. There are some very hungry machine shops here looking for anything to keep their people working.

My only concern is the vibration!!!!!!!! That would drive me up the wall. Plus it is not good to have imbalanced energy continually generated like that, something could brake or at least ware out faster.

Any thoughts as to the 265 changing the resonant frequency of the engine/trans assembly?

Any thoughts as to the 265 changing the resonant frequency of the engine/trans assembly?


I think this is definitely a valid concern. I have been battling a vibe in my MB 4spd at around 1700-1800 rpm under load since the swap. I have tried relocating the trans up, down and sideways to no avail. when I swapped in the 2.47 the vibe disappeared in 2nd but still there in third. (second was the worst of all so that was a relief) now I just make sure I shift at an RPM where the next lower gear is above 2000 and its smooth as silk. I cant comment on the getrag but I think the vibe he had was a worse situation. Since its a population of one it is not conclusively a problem. In addition AMG used the getrag in the w123 in the earlu 80's so I dont think its an inherent issue.

picture 1 MB 4spd model
picture 2 getrag 265 in MB 4spd bell
picture 3 getrag 265 in MB 4spd bell with spacer and locating collar
picture 4 getrag 265 in MB 4sdp bell with spacer, collar and hydraulic throw-out bearing

That is some really nice work there. Well your right about an adapter plate working with the MB bell. That would be the easiest route, but where do you get the MB bell, I have only seen a few ever! Never thought to grab one, but hind sight is 20/20.

Now the Vibration I can only assume is some miss alignment on my part that I'm not seeing. I hope to get some time and good weather to try to figure it out but who knows when that will happen.

If we can get some cast bells cheap <300 bucks I think thats the best way, but we'll see how that goes. If you get everything from a donor BMW then I would just mod the casting for the BMW clutch stuff, but if you just get the 265 then it would be better with say the Saab throwout and slave.

http://img.eautopartscatalog.com/live/I301059808STP.JPG

Mathieu @ Old World Auto says he has a refurb company in DE he gets his 5 speeds from.

I should have my new 5 spd before xmas. Does anyone want the borked 5 speed that I have?

That is some really nice work there. Well your right about an adapter plate working with the MB bell. That would be the easiest route, but where do you get the MB bell, I have only seen a few ever! Never thought to grab one, but hind sight is 20/20.

Now the Vibration I can only assume is some miss alignment on my part that I'm not seeing. I hope to get some time and good weather to try to figure it out but who knows when that will happen.

If we can get some cast bells cheap <300 bucks I think thats the best way, but we'll see how that goes. If you get everything from a donor BMW then I would just mod the casting for the BMW clutch stuff, but if you just get the 265 then it would be better with say the Saab throwout and slave.

http://img.eautopartscatalog.com/live/I301059808STP.JPG


I see 4 spds about 1-2 month. I pulled the first 2 I saw, then I left them because no one buys the swap kits and I have too much money laying around. Its a about an hours work to pull a trans and its almost as much to buy the bell as the whole trans. I have 2 getrags so I figured if I found another getrag I would pull another 4 spd

Mathieu @ Old World Auto says he has a refurb company in DE he gets his 5 speeds from.

I should have my new 5 spd before xmas. Does anyone want the borked 5 speed that I have?


what does Mathieu get for a 5 spd? what about shifters and rods, does he have them too?

lutzTD, what dose pro-e say the new bell housing would weigh per alloy, and what is the volume for the SLS?

I agree about using the BMW clutch assembly for the new casted housing. With the amount of aluminum known and the volume that the pattern will be I can get reasonably realistic quotes.

It will be similar to the BMW housing. let me weigh that. The pro/e model does nt have all of the ribbing and structure

BMW housing weighs 10 pounds with the clutch slave on it. figure 8.5 to 9 for the casting sorry it took so long I forgot where it was. it was still at my work by the CMM

what does Mathieu get for a 5 spd? what about shifters and rods, does he have them too?

$2700 or so for the trans.

good lord

That's almost 7 times what I paid for my car! :eek:

For a new rebuilt trans, its not unseemingly. An auto is gonna cost 12-1500 and those are easy to find. I think that includes shipping which makes it sound more reasonable eh?

For a new rebuilt trans, its not unseemingly. An auto is gonna cost 12-1500 and those are easy to find. I think that includes shipping which makes it sound more reasonable eh?


whats $2700 in a car you're going to keep forever.... BUT, there is a guy Ebaying whole kits that get around $1200-1500 per PM me and Ill give you his handle

I nearly sh*t a brick when I got the e-mail saying $2700! From the fuel saved it would take several years just to break even. :(

Ok, I called my local casting place ( trying to keep as much business in Michigan as possible).

They need a print for an official quote, but I told her that I am looking for an idea of cost per service guestimate and she said that if I made the mold the pore cost would be about $9.00(-+) prlb of aluminum @ 10 lbs = $90.00. They could make a foam pattern and mold for about $75.00 (+-). (the way to go I think) I told her that I would have two castings for prototype validation. Turn around time is about two weeks. They can also so do a T-6 heat treatment for added strength. Did not get a cost for that but I would want that for a Diesel.

Total guestimate for raw casting (without heat treatment) is $165-200 each. If the casting is designed well and casts well, there should be minimal machining. Should be able to be done in two set ups.

I have other sources, one other in northern Michigan and two out of state, but this one is very close to home and I have had luck with them in the past (8 years ago).

lutzTD, a basic print of what you have now would be fine for a better quote. She said that a TIFF file would be best. If you could send it to me, I will get it to her.

Production (5 to 10 at a time) could get the costs per bell housing under $400.00 ea for sure.

What are your thoughts?

Well I had my 5 speed in and working perfectly, the only trouble was a vibration at a certain RPM that was a bit annoying.

Anyone have any ideas on a rpm based vib? Does not change with clutch in/out, gear in/out, standing still or highway, its always at a certain rpm.


The other day I was searching around on this sight for transmissions and came across some threads about some MB 5 speed Getrags that have a "vibration" at some point in the operating speed range. It was very late and I didn't think to save the links, sorry.

There was a theory that many 5th gear idlers were not shimmed correctly at the factory and after 1 or 200k on them they will Rattle with the slightest vibration. Most people commented that after tuning the engine the vibration went away or was drastically reduced.

BMWs have the same issue apparently and the BMW fix is to reshim the idler gear.

Is your vibration more of a chattering? You could have a cylinder that is not making balanced power, and at the vibration rpm the idler gear chatters. It would be like a tire that is out of balance. Usually there is a speed (Frequency) that the wheel will leave the pavement but below and above that speed it will seem to be ok.

The vibration is not related to the speed of the gears in the transmission as it is still present when the clutch is disengaged. The tranny I have is definitely low miles, it has the least amount of play in the bearing/gears that I have felt ever.

I'm going to try and bring the tranny down to the work bench tomorrow and see if I can find any miss alignment with the bell housing, as its the only place I can see the vibration coming from.

Keep up the good work with the 5 speed stuff, its people like you that make all this stuff materialize into a cheap thought out product.

The vibration is not related to the speed of the gears in the transmission as it is still present when the clutch is disengaged. The tranny I have is definitely low miles, it has the least amount of play in the bearing/gears that I have felt ever.

I'm going to try and bring the tranny down to the work bench tomorrow and see if I can find any miss alignment with the bell housing, as its the only place I can see the vibration coming from. .



I got the impression that the vibration / chatter was accruing in the other cars as your is, regardless of clutch and gear position. But you would think it would not chatter in 5th as the gear would be loaded. Just thought I would pass it along.


[/quote] Keep up the good work with the 5 speed stuff, its people like you that make all this stuff materialize into a cheap thought out product.

You and LutzTD are the ones that got it this far. It is going to take all of us to be reasonably sure the first castings will work properly.

Good hunting!!

Ok I took the tranny to the work bench and measured the bell housing to input shaft and its right on dead center in both directions, sooo no miss alignment there. I'll have to get a new throwout bearing, get the trans back in and up on the frame machine to see if I can figure out where the hell the vibration is coming from.