Al l I can gather from obvious sources is that Myna changes out the pump elements, along with some fancy external adjustments.

No details, however, on how the element transplant is done.

I'm starting to wonder if a competent machinist couldn't bore out the pumps for larger elements and achieve similar results minus the external adjustments.

Even larger pump elements are not readily available (which I gather that they are not), it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to mill new elements.

A little trial & error and you have pumps close to that of the Finns at half the price or less?

Provided; I do not know exactly how these injection pumps work, so I might just be pissing in the wind with this post.

I plan on experimenting with this.


th IP is a complicated little pump. I dont have a spare M/MW pump sitting around to play with yet.



I'm a tool and die maker, I'm sure I could whip something up.

I plan on experimenting with this.


th IP is a complicated little pump. I dont have a spare M/MW pump sitting around to play with yet.



I'm a tool and die maker, I'm sure I could whip something up.


I have a pump frpm a 617.951. Do you want it?

How about the 603 pump as well? :D

Hi,

60x engines have an IP Type M
61x use t have Type MW

The elements are completely different.
As far as I know Myna is doing M-pumps only. Those M-elements (7 mm) are available and it is a standard job for an injection shop to change elements and do adjustments of equal quantity and individual timing of the elements. Idle quantity should match stock and all other adjustment of the governor should be done at home depending on the setup of the engine (air supply).

For my SD I installed custom made MW elements (6 mm) and run them for about 2000 mi up to now in a stock engine.
For the MW-pump it is even easier (cheaper) to swap elements and do the necessary basic adjustments on the test bench.

In my opinion an adaptation to the individual engine set up (air supply) is necessary. Without increased air flow (turbo, IC, exhaust) the potential of larger elements can not be used. Further to this I recognised a different curve shape of fuel flow over rpm which has to be respected in comparison with the curve of air flow over rpm to avoid black smoke in the whole range of rpm.
I.e. with my 6 mm (HOLLY-) MW-elements I must live with dead bottom power (stock turbo not sufficient air at low rpm) to avoid black smoke.
This will definitely change when the VTN turbo, IC and exhaust mods are done.

Tom

I.e. with my 6 mm (HOLLY-) MW-elements I must live with dead bottom power (stock turbo not sufficient air at low rpm) to avoid black smoke.
Tom

Can you limit off-boost smoke by tweaking the alda?

So if this is a "standard job" why are people paying Myna $2-3000 + sending it halfway across the world (from the US anyway)?

If someone in the US can perfect this process, or if they already have the ability and simply ADVERTISE it - it would be a good niche market, with plenty of willing customers.

Although I don't know if it has been confirmed or not... there is also talk that Myna changes the cam to a custom one they've designed.

6mm elements are available from Bosch and were used on the 98-99 E300D. All the other M pump elements available in the US are 5.5mm.

:)

Only makes sense that if you raised the volume with a larger bore element that the pressure would drop unless you put a higher lift cam in.

You see? This is what I'm talking about. There is almost nothing known(published, written, explained) about the Myna pump. Not that I want to cheat the Finns out of $3k for the performance work they do. And believe me, their innovations are amazing. But that cost is ungodly high.

At most, I would only ever be able to justify spending a couple hundred on top of a total pump rebuild for 7MM elements.

For my SD I installed custom made MW elements (6 mm) and run them for about 2000 mi up to now in a stock engine.
For the MW-pump it is even easier (cheaper) to swap elements and do the necessary basic adjustments on the test bench.

In my opinion an adaptation to the individual engine set up (air supply) is necessary. Without increased air flow (turbo, IC, exhaust) the potential of larger elements can not be used. Further to this I recognised a different curve shape of fuel flow over rpm which has to be respected in comparison with the curve of air flow over rpm to avoid black smoke in the whole range of rpm.
I.e. with my 6 mm (HOLLY-) MW-elements I must live with dead bottom power (stock turbo not sufficient air at low rpm) to avoid black smoke.
This will definitely change when the VTN turbo, IC and exhaust mods are done.

Tom


:eek: :eek:

Where did you have these elements made?

I have the other mods needed already, now I need more FUEL! :D

A larger element with the same stroke will be a larger volume. The pressure is determined by the nozzle.

Only makes sense that if you raised the volume with a larger bore element that the pressure would drop unless you put a higher lift cam in.

A larger element with the same stroke will be a larger volume. The pressure is determined by the nozzle.

I just wrapped my mind around it, the vertical travel is not affected so the delivery stroke is the same, but with a larger bore it delivers more fuel


My mind was in the wrong ballpark as fluids are non-compressible!!

Although I don't know if it has been confirmed or not... there is also talk that Myna changes the cam to a custom one they've designed.

6mm elements are available from Bosch and were used on the 98-99 E300D. All the other M pump elements available in the US are 5.5mm.

:)

Impossible that the cam is different! The elements are interchangeable, so stroke must be the same.

Can you limit off-boost smoke by tweaking the alda?

Yes, but this increases the turbo lag and indicates that there is sleeping power unused.

A larger element with the same stroke will be a larger volume. The pressure is determined by the nozzle.

The larger volume exits in the same period of time. Peak pressure rises, better for atomisation and still far away from upper pressure limit of the pump.

The HOLLY-elements are "hand made" by a couple of smaller companies, due to the number of pieces. Important is the material, the mill job, heat treatment and final individual lapping. And of course the pre calculation for the design :cool:



Tom

The HOLLY-elements are "hand made" by a couple of smaller companies, due to the number of pieces. Important is the material, the mill job, heat treatment and final individual lapping. And of course the pre calculation for the design :cool:



Tom


Can you give any more info? Names? Phone numbers? Price? You're killing me. :):o

the only info that makes sense for you is price.
These elements are manufactured by very small local shops (and friends), none of them wants and needs to know what the final pieces is used for.
It took me nearly one year to build this network of specialists.
The first set is running in my SD for about 2000 mi now and I expect 2 further sets mid of August to be ready. The 2 new sets will give me the cost. The first set can be compared to real gold (in terms of cost).

Tom

tomnik, you live in Germany. M-pumps should be all over the place over there. Why are you spending so much to make 6mm plungers for the MW pump when you can get an M-pump and buy 6mm plungers new from Bosch for less?

believe it or not but there are no turbo-Ms for the 617a over here.
For the 60x you can find many turbo IPs (M).
The MW for me seems to be "better" because individual timing and individual flow can be adjusted from "outside" and the housing is more resistant to pressure.
I don't trust the shops that they adjust individual timing and flow at all (as you know cam rollers have to be adapted which means that the pump has to be disassembled after the bench test, then tested again until timing and flow is what I expect).
MW pumps go up to more than 10 mm elements so they are made for more.
And on top my project started at a time when I did not know where to get 7 mm M elements. I learned a lot doing this and today for me it does not make any difference what kind of elements I touch even gasser elements for old Porsche are in discussion with some racing boys nowadays.
MW elements in the range of 6 -7 mm simply not exist on the market.

Tom

I don't trust the shops that they adjust individual timing and flow at all Its something they must adjust within specs or the engine will run like crap.

(as you know cam rollers have to be adapted which means that the pump has to be disassembled after the bench test, then tested again until timing and flow is what I expect).

The panel on the side is where individual plunger timing adjustment is accessed. They aren't as easy to adjust as the MW but its no problem when the pump is mounted to the flow machine.

Its something they must adjust within specs or the engine will run like crap.

you do not want to know what is still within spec!!
timing: +- 1 deg
ths might be o.k. that the engine runs, but ...

[/QUOTE]
The panel on the side is where individual plunger timing adjustment is accessed. They aren't as easy to adjust as the MW but its no problem when the pump is mounted to the flow machine.[/QUOTE]

NO, individual quantity (turning the plunger)!
Timing is set (M-Pumps) by using cam rollers of different diameter. The vertical position of the barrel is fix in the housing. By changing the diameter of the roller you change the offset of the plunger (which is timing).
Doing this correctly means doing the disassembling and reassembling job several times. I asked and none of them ever had an M-pump individual timing out of spec:cool:

Join a bench adjustment and you will get in trouble with the guy, in case it is your pump he is working on...

Tom

Talked to a very sharp guy at a Bosch shop in Dallas who claims he can get more fuel out of a MW pump than the 617 can handle. He seems to have spent many hours with one on the test stand.
If I had more time to devote to this I'd take one over to him. Afraid he may be retired before I get around to it.

If the price is right, you'll get a TON of people wanting one.

Dan,

Any chance you would like to provide his contact info, in case someone else in the area might want to pursue this?

Talked to a very sharp guy at a Bosch shop in Dallas who claims he can get more fuel out of a MW pump than the 617 can handle. He seems to have spent many hours with one on the test stand.
If I had more time to devote to this I'd take one over to him. Afraid he may be retired before I get around to it.

Getting more fuel out of the IP is not the question.
End of delivery is important to avoid black smoke. To allow the injected fuel to burn completely end of delivery has to be far enough away from TDC. The start of delivery is fix within a small range.
Looking at the principal of how these pumps work all additional fuel is added in sense of increased effective plunger stroke increasing the delivery time towards TDC (start of delivery is fix).

And all additional fuel must have additional air.

Tom

Getting more fuel out of the IP is not the question.
End of delivery is important to avoid black smoke. To allow the injected fuel to burn completely end of delivery has to be far enough away from TDC. The start of delivery is fix within a small range.
Looking at the principal of how these pumps work all additional fuel is added in sense of increased effective plunger stroke increasing the delivery time towards TDC (start of delivery is fix).

And all additional fuel must have additional air.

Tom

So, Then the delivery pressure needs to be increased??? How is this done without changing the cam or elements?

I'll see if I can find the contact info. I believe I have it on a note pad in the SD. I believe he quoted me $450 to do a MW pump.

So, Then the delivery pressure needs to be increased??? How is this done without changing the cam or elements?
Not necessarily. What needs to happen is that more fuel needs to be injected in a short amount of time. If the injection process takes too long fuel will be injected after it can't be effectively burned... That doesn't give you any power and just increases EGTs :(

If your Bosch guy is going to put 10mm elements in the MW you'll have more of a problem regulating idle than you will injecting the fuel too late!

I think 6 mm DVs and enlarged injectors is the way to go. The stock DVs may work if we can perfect the modification of the collar.

I'm on the prowl for some 10mm elements from a MW DT466.

I'm also looking for a spare MW pump. Looking for donations.

I'm going to try installing the elements, then some limited home testing. If it seems like a working unit; I'll have it put on the rack at an injection shop for testing, including delivery rate testing if they have it.

The only issue I can foresee is excessive fuel delivery, more than likely trying to drive this vehicle at under 60mph and NOT producing a black smokescreen will be a challenge. If anyone has suggestions on how to limit fuel delivery, spill it. :D

The only issue I can foresee is excessive fuel delivery, more than likely trying to drive this vehicle at under 60mph and NOT producing a black smokescreen will be a challenge. If anyone has suggestions on how to limit fuel delivery, spill it. :D

Idling with out the engine running away may also be a problem :eek:

Thats what the intake shutter (2" ball valve on the turbo) is going to be for. :D

I found a stateside shop (http://superturbodiesel.com/std/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=117)

lol overfueling at idle with the 10mm elements.

Here are the pictures I got of a 10mm MW pump at the truck show.

I'm always confused on this point... Is a 603 pump a M or MW? Because that looks nothing like my 603 pump (spare)...

I think the 603 has a M

60X, euro 61X are M pumps.

Thanks. With all the letters and numbers tossed around I start to get confused... :dizzy:

Could an M pump off of a 602 be used on a 617? That would be a bit easier to find than a euro M pump, and it already has the provision for an ALDA

Could an M pump off of a 602 be used on a 617? That would be a bit easier to find than a euro M pump, and it already has the provision for an ALDA
The only thing I see as a problem is mainly the mounting points. Other than that there is the injector lines and the throttle linkages.... I'd think those are fairly minor compared to mounting the IP. It also might mount to the timing device differently. :confused:

Could an M pump off of a 602 be used on a 617? That would be a bit easier to find than a euro M pump, and it already has the provision for an ALDA

Different mounting flange design.